$1.65 NLHE MTT: Thoughts on Improving Play? Fold at Some Point?

[sundizzel]

Looking for advice on this hand. I wound up calling down increasingly large donk bets on each street with ATs.

I didn't feel great about each additional call because my hand seemed to strong to fold, but it also seemed pretty clear I was probably out-kicked or up against AQ two-pair. Perhaps he had a drawing straight hand that didn't pan out, but this would have been an odd way to play that, not to mention we have the 10 blocker. My main question is whether my hand becomes a fold at some point or if I should continue calling in the hopes of beating a worse Ace or a pair of Queens.

As always, any advice on how the rest of the hand could've been played better would be appreciated--thanks in advance for any input!

Winning Poker, Hold'em No Limit - 300/600 (75 ante) - 7 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat - https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/4qQ9NRy

UTG: 42,077 (70 bb)
MP: 51,853 (86 bb)
MP+1: 58,393 (97 bb)
CO: 39,975 (67 bb)
BU (Hero): 53,821 (90 bb)
SB: 53,714 (90 bb)
BB: 100,125 (167 bb)

Pre-Flop: (1,425) Hero is BTN with T♥ A♥
2 players fold, MP+1 raises to 1,800, 1 fold, Hero calls 1,800, 2 players fold

Flop: (5,025) Q♠ A♣ 2♦ (2 players)
MP+1 bets 2,563, Hero calls 2,563

Turn: (10,151) 3♠ (2 players)
MP+1 bets 7,701, Hero calls 7,701

River: (25,553) 8♦ (2 players)
MP+1 bets 17,121, Hero calls 17,121

 

[Ecolando]

I would say you played well this hand. Especially at the lower stakes like this, I would expect someone to play this way with much shittier hands than A10, and even all out bluffs. You're correct to just call it down> I think more often than not, you win this hand. What did they have in the end? It doesn't show.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Calling ATs on BTN cant be that bad, but personally I lean a lot towards 3-betting in spots like this. You knock the blinds out of the pot, you often pick it up uncontested, and when MP+1 calls, you have an uncapped range and can often pick it up with a flop C-bet. When you just call, you are much more dependent on making a hand, and often you put yourself in bluff-catching mode right from the start of the hand.

Flop
Obviously you have to call with top pair, not much to say here. Most people are C-betting (to) wide, and you beat all his bluffs, his second pair etc.

Turn and river
I am going to analyse these streets as one, because its kind of the same thing. When he keep firing for this size, then most likely the bottom of his value range is something like AJ on the turn and AK on the river. So you have a bluff catcher. And the issue is, there are not many logical bluffs on this board. Maybe he can have a hand like KJ, KT or JT of spades exactly, which flopped a gutshot and picked up a backdoor flushdraw. But thats pretty much it.

So in my experience this is an underbluffed spot, and you actually need to fold if not on the turn then at least on the river. And this is exactly why, I prefer to go on the offensive preflop and 3-bet. Lets say he had AK or QQ, and you put in a 3-bet. Now he probably 4-bet, and thats actually ok, because it allow you to get away from a bad spot relatively cheaply. By raising you gained information about his hand, and while this is not the main purpose of raising, it is a usefull byproduct.

 

[ZenGreen]

This is where the middle aces put you in horrible situations. Its liek the dude has a set or something and knows he's got you ont he hook for all 3 streets, I dunno how to even stop it.

SO HERE MY LOGIC LATELY. How many hands do you play that you win quick or know where you stand much better.

WHAT THE QUICKEST PATH - A STRAIGHT LINE WITHOUT MUCH BLOCKING YOUR PATH.

this dude is blocking your path on each street. THAT IS NOT AN EASY STRAIGHT LINE

Fold this hand OTT, Admit this guy bluffed you hard and find a better hand and better spot. Calling down 3 streets with a kind of weak ace, if anything JAM THAT TURN if your gonna call 3/4 bet. I DUNNO

Fold find a hand that isnt such a unknown hell this guy could of had 72o

 

[ZenGreen]

EDIT FOR ABOVE, Now if you had better than one pair then you played this great, I just dont think a one pair hand is ever good here

 

[Collin Moshman]

I like your line. I also call here pre-flop and would definitely call flop. The point you could fold is turn. Whether or not you should fold depends on your opponent. If he's tight/passive then you can get away from this hand. If he's loose/aggro, then I like calling down here. I would also call down against a player I didn't know anything about, in freerolls and low-stakes games.

One small jargon note if it helps: Because Villain was the one to raise pre-flop, he's c-betting each post-flop street instead of donk-betting.

Nicely played!

 

[sundizzel]

Thanks to everyone that responded to this spot! From what I've gathered, I could have played it a bit better with a re-raise pre-flop to tighten up the villain range, and, as the hand played out, I could have folded on the turn.

What did they have in the end? It doesn't show.

They did, indeed, have AK!

So in my experience this is an underbluffed spot, and you actually need to fold if not on the turn then at least on the river. And this is exactly why, I prefer to go on the offensive preflop and 3-bet. Lets say he had AK or QQ, and you put in a 3-bet. Now he probably 4-bet, and thats actually ok, because it allow you to get away from a bad spot relatively cheaply. By raising you gained information about his hand, and while this is not the main purpose of raising, it is a usefull byproduct.

Top-notch analysis, as usual, Fundiver. They did have AK, so I think the pre-flop re-raise would have provided me with some much needed information. I am certain I don't re-raise enough, so I'll be working on that this week.

SO HERE MY LOGIC LATELY. How many hands do you play that you win quick or know where you stand much better.

This is a decent point--I probably know where I stand much better in around 90% of the hands that I play. On the other hand, that's what makes this such a prime subject to make a post in an effort to improve my play. While I agree that it could have easily been folded and I could've moved on, I don't think I would've learned much/anything from doing so.

I like your line. I also call here pre-flop and would definitely call flop. The point you could fold is turn. Whether or not you should fold depends on your opponent. If he's tight/passive then you can get away from this hand. If he's loose/aggro, then I like calling down here. I would also call down against a player I didn't know anything about, in freerolls and low-stakes games.

One small jargon note if it helps: Because Villain was the one to raise pre-flop, he's c-betting each post-flop street instead of donk-betting.

One of the issues I had was that I did not have a read on the player--therefore, I opted for calling it down against an unknown playstyle. What do you think of a pre-flop re-raise, as suggested by Fundiver, and is there a reason you prefer a flat call?

Also, I'm not sure why I said he was donk betting, as I am aware that a donk bet is when you open into the pre-flop aggressor. Maybe because, when he showed AK, I thought it was a bit weird of a line to take, as he perhaps could've gotten more value out of a check; although, it's certainly possible to get a Hero check-back there, which would've been a loss of value. Nonetheless, thanks for pointing it out--it was a misusage forsure.


Thanks again for everyone's input! You guys are awesome, and I learn a ton from posting these hands and digesting your analyses.

 

[Jon Poker]

Short and sweet -- i mix here between calling and 3betting - i tend to call here sub 60bb and 3b alot when i am deeper - nonetheless, I dont hate the flat whatsoever.

Flop is easy, we just have to call.

Turn doesn't change much, im still likely not folding just yet, most villans are not going to double barrel a Qx hand but if villan has a hand like JTs or a small pocket pair they are turning into a bluff, then the way they get a Qx hand of ours to fold is to double barrel turn cards large.

The river is where I find the fold - we just do not beat any of the hands our villan is tripling off into us with for value - if we are getting bluffed, it is what it is and good for this villan because they're gonna get me to fold. I just dont find a hand we beat on the river to warrent calling - we lose to A2s, A3s, A8s - AJ, AQ and AK -- i dont think villan triples worse than AK on this particular texture - i think after being called twice even AJ slows down some percentage of the time and looks to go to showdown.

Anyhow, as played - call flop, call turn - realize that with the river bet there really aren't any hands we beat, so just find the fold.

 

[schtiuky]

esaly go for flop