$1.65 NLHE MTT Rebuy: Clueless - I guess I fold ? 1000gtd

[theANMATOR]

blinds 1250/2500 ante 325
Nearing ITM - but not entirely sure as to how close because I had 8 other tables going and one was at FT.

I have 50.18bb I open 99 UTG 2.2x my standard raise for every hand I play. Everyone has a 20+bb stack except one 9.5bb stack that just joined the table - and has not been dealt into this hand - so we are 7 handed.

CO - a certified TAG calls 25.43bb behind
BTN a solid LAG calls 73.4bb behind The deck has been hitting this guy square for the past 20 minutes. He was down to 15bb and got AA back to back and KK twice within one orbit, and was lucky enough to get stacks in nearly every time.
and BB calls 22.95bb behind. BB is also a TAG only playing big
aces and 99+ mostly

Flop Q7T rainbow
Checks around - I see no point in betting this since we have 3rd pair vs 3 opponents.

Turn is 4 now two clubs on board I have 9 of clubs
Still no point to bet in my mind. Checks around to btn again and BTN LAG bets out 3.41bb
BB folds and i fold knowing 3rd best pair is never good vs 2 opponents one being the TAG. And pretty much knowing the LAG isn't betting into 3 opponents with less than a Ten
TAG in CO calls

River T of clubs and it checks through - LAG shows 88s and the assumed TAG shows A/J off.


I was just lost in this hand really. I guess we could have called assuming someone was on the flush draw, but vs even 2 opponents I figured I was just beat with 3rd pair.
Just wanted to post to see if anyone had some thoughts, other than good fold. My note on the TAG is clearly not as accurate as I assumed it was.

 

[puzzlefish]

Without an extended sample of tournaments facing the same player, I am not sure how accurate any classification would be, and especially at these stakes.

As played, it was just hand where every player ended up being weak without knowing the relative strengths of the others involved. You didn't do anything wrong. You don't have any good bluffs.

 

[fundiver199]

This hand is a textbook illustration of the power of position. Because BTN was last to act on every street, he was able to bet the turn, when it checked to him twice, because at that point he could be pretty sure, that nobody had a Q or T. Its a pretty reasonable bet by him mostly for protection, because with this action 88 is going to be the best hand a lot of the time, and some worse hands like draws can still call.

As for CO he was able to call with a hand worse than yours, because he was closing action. Its not a totally crazy call by him either with a gutshot, an overcard and essentially the nut nothing, since AK would most likely have been 3-bet preflop. If BTN is bluffing, AJ would be ahead, and if BTN is betting for value or protection, as in fact he was, AJ is never drawing dead.

You on the other hand could not bet the turn, because when it was your turn to act, each opponent had only checked once, and its totally plausible someone would check once with a T or maybe even a weak Q. And you could also not call, because you still had to worry about CO behind you, who had not yet folded. So all in all I think, everyone here played pretty well, and basically this is why, we need to be so tight from UTG.

 

[eetenor]

blinds 1250/2500 ante 325
Nearing ITM - but not entirely sure as to how close because I had 8 other tables going and one was at FT.

I have 50.18bb I open 99 UTG 2.2x my standard raise for every hand I play. Everyone has a 20+bb stack except one 9.5bb stack that just joined the table - and has not been dealt into this hand - so we are 7 handed.

CO - a certified TAG calls 25.43bb behind
BTN a solid LAG calls 73.4bb behind The deck has been hitting this guy square for the past 20 minutes. He was down to 15bb and got AA back to back and KK twice within one orbit, and was lucky enough to get stacks in nearly every time.
and BB calls 22.95bb behind. BB is also a TAG only playing big
aces and 99+ mostly

Flop Q7T rainbow
Checks around - I see no point in betting this since we have 3rd pair vs 3 opponents.

Turn is 4 now two clubs on board I have 9 of clubs
Still no point to bet in my mind. Checks around to btn again and BTN LAG bets out 3.41bb
BB folds and i fold knowing 3rd best pair is never good vs 2 opponents one being the TAG. And pretty much knowing the LAG isn't betting into 3 opponents with less than a Ten
TAG in CO calls

River T of clubs and it checks through - LAG shows 88s and the assumed TAG shows A/J off.


I was just lost in this hand really. I guess we could have called assuming someone was on the flush draw, but vs even 2 opponents I figured I was just beat with 3rd pair.
Just wanted to post to see if anyone had some thoughts, other than good fold. My note on the TAG is clearly not as accurate as I assumed it was.

Thank you for posting

We can never be 100% sure what the best action 4 way is but we can take the time now to think about the data you have and how you might use it in a similar hand in the future.

This is the data we have
#1 we have a 50bb stack which means we can risk chips based on our reads.
#2 We have solid reads on the V who have position 1 TAG 1 LAG
#3 The flop was checked thru.
#4 The turn 4 hit very few hands
#5 The first bet comes from the LAG on the BTN
#6 We are the preflop raiser and we checked twice.

Ok so how do we range our V based on data. As always these are estimates based on data.

1 CO TAG checked flop so no Q
2 BT LAG checks flop so no Q no T
3 BB TAG checks turn so no Q no T
4 CO TAG " " " " " "
5 BTN LAG who seldom has a T as played bets on a wet board

This is where we make an error not in folding as a fold in this spot is fine with 99 but in ranging a BTN LAG.

As you say the LAG would bet a T but they checked the flop. Why when 3 TAGS check flop would a solid LAG not bet the T for protection and represent the Q at the same time?
The LAG has 74bb what solid LAG checks the BTN there with a T. Even the 88 is a bad check as a solid LAG will target the TAGS on the flop to get a T to fold on turn.
Both the other TAGS were too deep to bluff shove but too shallow to chase so why check flop?
If the LAG is solid they might know that the TAGS bet turn with hands better than 88 so as it turned out they bet turn for value vs TAGs playing straight forwardly

With that data we now have a wider range for the LAG-the LAG can have draws on turn and bet those not just Tx+ and as we saw 88 as well.

Hope this helps

 

[300HPGOD]

I like what Fundiver wrote in his post as it is so true. One thing I thought of reading all this is you dont mention what these players play like post flop with respect to calling. You have them as loose aggressive and tight aggressive which I take as they play post flop aggressively but do are they loose with their calls or tight with their calls? There are plenty of players who are LAG and TAG that are aggressive until they face a bet and then run and hide. This will also factor into if TAG player behind calls bet on the turn or not. If we think they call often then I think we can pitch as not only would they come along but we wont get rid of them on river. If they (and hopefully LAG player as well) are tight with calls then we have some incentive to stay in.

I bring this up because your hand looks like AK a lot and could easily be interpreted that way. The river is a card that when it is a low card we feel empowered a bit more by our actual hand and when the an overcard to the board comes we can rep it. Again, you would need two opponents that have firing brain cells that know how to click the fold button and are actually thinking about the range you have. That is definitely not a given in a $1.65 but higher up when and if you face this spot I think you could call here if you believe your opponents can fold. However, given all the data that you gave in your post I believe the fold by you is the best play most of the time.

 

[AKQ]

" And pretty much knowing the LAG isn't betting into 3 opponents with less than a Ten"

that was your mistake
a lag will bet anything if checked to on the flop and checked to again on the turn in position.
the tight player noticed that and called down with nothing becuase"how could the lag not bet the flop if he hit, and he didnt hit the turn,(but he has position and we are taught to use it aggressivley.
knowing this,
the tag called the lag with 8's

if you didnt fold on the turn
the tag would have folded
and you would have made the calldown instead lol]


food for thought

 

[theANMATOR]

Without an extended sample of tournaments facing the same player, I am not sure how accurate any classification would be, and especially at these stakes.

As played, it was just hand where every player ended up being weak without knowing the relative strengths of the others involved. You didn't do anything wrong. You don't have any good bluffs.

Hey PF thanks for your input.

Any player I have labeled I have extended knowledge on. I use these notes and reads on players - mostly the extreme types - to exploit my opponents as often as I'm able.

Of course people change over time - and some even improve - I think that is possibly what your comment means about "especially at these stakes". If I'm off the mark here I welcome a follow up for clarification.

 

[fundiver199]

Of course people change over time - and some even improve - I think that is possibly what your comment means about "especially at these stakes".

People might improve over time, but it would be really unusual for them to lose skills, they already aquired. So you might see someone progres from fish or nit to tag or lag, but it would be very unusual to see the opposite thing happen. Of course the mental state of a player is also hugely important. If someone is on tilt or drunk, they might make some crazy bad plays, they would not normally make. Or maybe they let someone else play from their account. Even though this is not allowed, it will obviously happen, since its online poker.

 

[puzzlefish]

Hey PF thanks for your input.

Any player I have labeled I have extended knowledge on. I use these notes and reads on players - mostly the extreme types - to exploit my opponents as often as I'm able.

Of course people change over time - and some even improve - I think that is possibly what your comment means about "especially at these stakes". If I'm off the mark here I welcome a follow up for clarification.

Yes, I meant that I have found that people's playing style doesn't stay constant at low stakes. Maybe you have run into some players in this particular tournament and from others before who do play the same way over and over again. In that case I am wrong. In my experience I just find that players are not very consistent with their styles. Perhaps it comes down to details of notes, in which case yours sound like they are the more detailed ones.

 

[fundiver199]

I am not someone, who advocate a GTO play style in micro or low stakes games. But with that being said I also think, individual reads or adjustments are not always that important. And this hand is a pretty good example of that. It can basically be boiled down to the following:

1) We have third pair and no draw
2) We are against three opponents

This is just an easy spot to give up, and it does not really matter, who the opponents are. Occationally we will end up folding the best hand, as we actually did here, but in the long run we get the best results by not investing chips in a postflop situation like this.

 

[lanelosee100]

Yes this is a fold. Do not risk your deepstack when it's multiway. Fold and move on with a respectable stack going itm

 

[theANMATOR]

Thanks all for your detailed input.

Agree with all viewpoints. This is a solid fold, however I could have easily called the turn and folded if needed to any additional action on that street, or extreme action on the river. As mentioned - I mistakenly read the LAG as being stronger than he was. EE and AKQ pointed out accurately - what I definitely missed in this hand. The LAG is betting when checked too twice with pretty much ANY hand that 'could' showdown.

I also - do not GTO - most of the time, vs most of the player pool. I adjust as the event gets closer to FT, or if I know the opponent I'm up against is a solid fundamental player, which there are a few in this pool.

A great play - from the TAG could have been to check-raise turn jam, but as TAGs go - they are by nature - NOT - bluffing hardly ever - unless they have a monster semi-bluff situation, something like a 14+ out combo draw with 2 cards to come.

 

[garibe]

"Flop Q7T rainbow
Checks around - I see no point in betting this since we have 3rd pair vs 3 opponents."

In these situations C-betting 100% small in this board (+-10BB pot, 2.7/3BB )would be a great to get at least 2 other players out or at least put you HU. Which in my opinion would make things easier when turn comes.


My thinking is, Instead of being against 3 villains with 3rd pair, think you have the strongest range against all other players.


From a range perspective, and maybe taking in consideration the image you created in that table, some players would definitely put you in a nut hand.

"
Turn is 4 now two clubs on board I have 9 of clubsStill no point to bet in my mind. Checks around to btn again and BTN LAG bets out 3.41bb
BB folds and i fold knowing 3rd best pair is never good vs 2 opponents one being the TAG. And pretty much knowing the LAG isn't betting into 3 opponents with less than a Ten
TAG in CO calls"

Here, with a blank turn, the X-R is a good tool to probe also. Does require some knowledge of your opponent tendencies, but X-R high I believe is a good strategy against loose players.

I might be very wrong, but you being the UTG aggressor you must C-bet small any board that comes.


Pre-flop wise, I think:


CO would call you with any premium Tx, but with the TAG label, there is always the chance of any Ax, Ax suited.


BTN with that amount of chips is calling N-cards.


BB with 22 has to defend his premiums with a steal all-in. Otherwise he is defending/calling any Suited + AT KJ KQ off etc.


Just wanted to put my thoughts here as most people never mentioned betting the flop or the pot odds on that turn bet.

 

[AKQ]

i use a screenshot grabber called gyazo
Tammy and Debi got me using it and it is very fast and efficient
also saves the pics on the web NOT on your computer

i right click the pic in the web browser and copy image link
then paste into

 

[AKQ]

I also - do not GTO - most of the time, vs most of the player pool. I adjust as the event gets closer to FT, or if I know the opponent I'm up against is a solid fundamental player, which there are a few in this pool.

Sorrey in advance (ranted)
I ruin everything for everybody
sorry santa

There is no such thing as....
Game Theory Optimal

In the beginning of poker
we had different styles of play
lion donkey elephant manbearpig(lol)
But the eagle changes for his opponents
years later Eagle refined
We came out with advanced exploitative.
which was just more detailed on how to play the best eagle game.
GTO is supposed to be the "unbeatable"eagle
but for some reason
it still gets beat,
nobody can even tell me the difference between GTO and advanced exploitative.

Dufus "GTO in theory is unbeatable"
AKQ "What is the strategy?"
Dufus "

thats exploitative and the stupidest thing I ever heard
ranges and line/hand logic are not new


by you saying you don't GTO vs most the field
it says you are GTOing
because it is not optimal to bluff fish right?
So you adjust as optimally as you can to each opponent
thats why I'm not GTO sometimes
I'm GTO ALL THE TIME!!!

even if I don't know what that means!
and you are too!!

 

[theANMATOR]

Sorrey in advance (ranted)
I ruin everything for everybody
sorry santa

There is no such thing as....
Game Theory Optimal

In the beginning of poker
we had different styles of play
lion donkey elephant manbearpig(lol)
But the eagle changes for his opponents
years later Eagle refined
We came out with advanced exploitative.
which was just more detailed on how to play the best eagle game.
GTO is supposed to be the "unbeatable"eagle
but for some reason
it still gets beat,
nobody can even tell me the difference between GTO and advanced exploitative.

Dufus "GTO in theory is unbeatable"
AKQ "What is the strategy?"
Dufus "

thats exploitative and the stupidest thing I ever heard
ranges and line/hand logic are not new


by you saying you don't GTO vs most the field
it says you are GTOing
because it is not optimal to bluff fish right?
So you adjust as optimally as you can to each opponent
thats why I'm not GTO sometimes
I'm GTO ALL THE TIME!!!

even if I don't know what that means!
and you are too!!

See - this is perfect - and the exact reason I bluffed you the other day - because I KNEW you had the smarts enough to fold.
Compared to the two/four opponents you had on either side of you - which could not fold one pair ever - and why you were able to double up twice in the span of less than one orbit.

But maybe just maybe - I didn't bluff - and just lucked into a set on that flop.

OK I submit - I guess I GTO - but - I don't call it that! :icon_scra:top: