$1.50 NLHE STT: Simple QQ question

[Caesura]

A couple of months ago I wouldn't even have asked, but how would you play this?

pokerstars Hand #87796614994: Tournament #629926237, $1.29+$0.21 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2012/10/17 11:01:31 ET
Table '629926237 1' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 2: Player1 (3310 in chips)
Seat 3: Player 2(1130 in chips)
Seat 4: Player3 (2890 in chips)
Seat 7: HERO (3180 in chips)
Seat 8: VILLAIN(2990 in chips)
Villain: posts small blind 75
Player1: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO[Qc Qs]
Player2: folds
Player3: folds
HERO: raises 300 to 450
VILLAIN: raises 2540 to 2990 and is all-in
Player1: folds

HERO: ???

 

[tcummo]

Any reads?
Is villain tight or loose?
If villain had AA or KK a raise is more likely than an all in.
Possible AK in which case you are ahead but 'flipping'.
To me, Ax, pp, is more likely, but i'm probably wrong, lol.
I would call.
What did you do?

 

[SofaKingCrazy]

being it's only level 5 i would let this go unless this person has shown to be really LAG and thinks he can just get you to fold by shoving. it's too early for those chips to give you full advantage and without reads it may be best to wait till you have a better understanding of your opponent.

:evil:

ooops never mind
almost half the table is gone and this is an STT so the advantage IS there and I would call all day here.

 

[Caesura]

I thought he had AA or KK but I still called.
He showed AJo, I took the pot and went on to win the game.

If villain had AA or KK a raise is more likely than an all in.

Is this the most usual play? I will look into that. Interesting.

In the last 5 hands or so I had already raised AA and another strong hand, everyone folded both times. I think he thought I was bluffing or raising light

 

[cardriverx]

jeez guys this is a snap call -- you both only have 20 bbs each!

and you're 5 handed!

also, min-raise don't 3x it

 

[Poker Orifice]

jeez guys this is a snap call -- you both only have 20 bbs each!

and you're 5 handed!

also, min-raise don't 3x it

What would you fold here? (or what would be your calling range)
What if it was 4 left? (& effective stack sizes were same)

 

[seymourflopsws3]

[QUOTE Is this the most usual play? I will look into that. Interesting.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I see this a lot, normally they back raise you instead of shoving cause they want as much of your stack in preflop as possible with aces and kings. The greedy sods lol

 

[OzExorcist]

Button v blind I think this is a snapcall, the blinds can (and should) be figuring us for a wide range and shipping pretty wide themselves. Even if this is a nit we should still be expecting to see 88/99+ and AJ+ so we're ahead a big chunk of the time and if they're not a nit, we're even further ahead of their range.

Plus there's metagame considerations: if we win this then we become the overwhelming chip leader at the table going into the bubble, in a spot where there's two medium stacks and one short stack. Bullying ahoy!

As others have mentioned, I'd probably just make the open raise smaller. 2x or 2.25x should be fine.

 

[Caesura]

As others have mentioned, I'd probably just make the open raise smaller. 2x or 2.25x should be fine.

I only 3xed it. What difference would a smaller bet make? What are we hoping for with a 2x raise?

 

[OzExorcist]

You're hoping that you get the exact same result as you would have with a 3x bet, without having to put as many chips at risk.

Reality is that by this stage of a SnG stacks are small enough that you'll have no trouble getting them all in whenever you want. You don't need to build a pot as such.

And while in a vacuum a 3x bet with a big hand like QQ in this spot is fine because there's no way you're folding, you should also be raising a good chunk of the time in this spot with hands that you're going to have to fold to a shove. On those occasions, you'll save money by opening to a lower amount. And you become dangerously easy to read if you 3x with big hands and 2.25x or whatever with weak hands.

 

[Caesura]

Sorry Oz, it doesn't make sense to me.
The risk is if villain calls and there is either A or K on the flop then I'm compromised and lose my chips?
If I'm hoping for a shove, then that risks all my chips regardless of the size of my bet. Or, as others have said, the shove indicates villain is NOT holding AA or KK?

Thanks

 

[Caesura]

Interesting indeed, just had QQ again (bigger field though). I raised, got 4x reraised and villain did show KK. I will spare you the gory details

 

[Arjonius]

It's a snap call. It's virtually impossible to put anyone on a range that's narrow enough for folding to be correct, especially given there are already chips in the pot that affect the pot odds.

 

[Machidon7]

you are playing a low buy in tournament and you are 5 handed with a stack of 20 bb..your 3bb opening raise and the fact that the villain is gonna play oop may induce him to shove here an 88+, AQ AK range and i think u should call

 

[WiZZiM]

I think the raise size is fine if the intention is to get someone to shove over you. I don't like the reasoning of there being a risk to a smaller raise. A call happens often, but it's still a minority of the time, and out of those times, you will see and A or K only a small % aaaaand out of that small % you will still win the pot a decent chunk of the time.

The main reason i like the raise size is that it just looks like bait to players. I've found they go after you more when there is more to gain. So i actually like the raise size here if it's for those reasons. It may be unbalanced, but i'd raise 3x my monsters i'd want people to shove and raise smaller iwth the rest, i don't really care about balance in the micros, especially in MTT's.

and yeah, calling is fine.

 

[danprince10]

20bb guys, snap call ainec.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

Sorry Oz, it doesn't make sense to me.
The risk is if villain calls and there is either A or K on the flop then I'm compromised and lose my chips?
If I'm hoping for a shove, then that risks all my chips regardless of the size of my bet. Or, as others have said, the shove indicates villain is NOT holding AA or KK?

Thanks

he's saying that you should be raising more hands in this spot, so say you had JTs instead of QQ? you'd have to fold to the shove, and when you are shoved on opening 2x instead of 3x saves you money and accomplishes the same.

and 20bb shoves over 2/3x opens is standard in sngs with 100% of peoples ranges normally.. he might min 3 bet AA/KK if they're a fish but regs will normally just ship it, or flat and reship over a squeeze from time to time.

 

[Caesura]

Thanks for all the feedback. Amazing the amount of thought that can go into such a seemingly easy decision.

 

[OzExorcist]

It may be unbalanced, but i'd raise 3x my monsters i'd want people to shove and raise smaller iwth the rest, i don't really care about balance in the micros, especially in MTT's.

Yeah, obviously if balance isn't an issue then 3x big hands / 2 or 2.25x weak hands is fine. I know I've been a bit out of touch with the online game recently (and this level for an even longer time), but the average villain is really still that stupid?

Follow up question for OP in that case: if you have A8o or QTs in this spot, how much are you raising to?

 

[Caesura]

If I were to raise it would be the same, but I might fold or limp to be totally honest, depending on how previous hands had played out.

 

[Rldetheflop]

If I were to raise it would be the same, but I might fold or limp to be totally honest, depending on how previous hands had played out.

I don't think we should be doing a lot of limping with 20 BB left. at this stage we really should be looking to steal blinds and get our stack in with good equity.

 

[OzExorcist]

I don't think we should be doing a lot of limping with 20 BB left. at this stage we really should be looking to steal blinds and get our stack in with good equity.

^ this. Obviously we'll adjust depending on the players in the blinds, but in general if we're folding A8 or QT type hands on the button when it's folded to us here we're giving away money. So can you see how in those spots a smaller open raise benefits us?

 

[Caesura]

^ this. Obviously we'll adjust depending on the players in the blinds, but in general if we're folding A8 or QT type hands on the button when it's folded to us here we're giving away money. So can you see how in those spots a smaller open raise benefits us?

With ya. I see that a lot actually, especially close to the bubble.