$1.50 NLHE STT: Shove this flop?

[tzuriel]

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD 2 Poker Tracking Software

I'm a big chip leader here and didn't think shoving the flop was the right play. I figured he was drawing when he didn't raise flop and when he checks turn I am almost certain he is drawing. I shoved with the best hand (70% ahead)and he got lucky (I got lucky later against him and came in 1st so it all balances out, as usual). Should I have shoved earlier to deny his equity? He is probably calling anyway after seeing his hand but what is the best play in this spot?

NL Holdem $1.50+$0.15 (200.00BB)
BB ($3954)
HERO ($11024)

Dealt to Hero: 8♣ 7♣

HERO Raises To $525, SB Folds, BB Calls $300

Hero SPR on Flop: [2.92 effective]
Flop ($1175): 6♣ T♠ 7♠
BB Checks, HERO Bets $588 (Rem. Stack: $9911), BB Calls $588 (Rem. Stack: $2841)

Turn ($2351): 6♣ T♠ 7♠ 4♣
BB Checks, HERO Bets $9911 (allin), BB Calls $2841 (allin)

River ($15103): 6♣ T♠ 7♠ 4♣ 3♠

Spoiler

BB shows: A♠ 4♠

BB wins: $8033

 

[300HPGOD]

I would not shove on the flop. Its too much of an overbet to jam there being maybe somewhere around 3x overbet given the effective stacks. We would want other hands to continue besides just draws and draws will probably even fold to that large of an overbet meaning most of the time and against most opponents, when you jam flop you will only get hands that are beating you to call. Now, It is possible you could get small 10x hands to fold if you rip there. That would be an upside to the move but I like betting more the way you did (even slightly larger than you did) and think more about jamming on the turn (if you even plan to jam as mid pair here to me is more of a bluff catcher hand than a jam it in hand but heads up any pair is strong).

The turn sets up more for a jam if you want to go that route given the stack sizes but the turn is also a great card for you in a sense you have less cards to worry about given your flush draw. I think the only hands that would call this (that we beat) are flush draws and only strong flush draws at that so even though non club overcards are bad for a potential river I think I check here and bluff catch river. I will say though in my opinion, if you are going to bet on the turn you should just put it in given any decent size bet commits you on the river given the effective stack.

 

[eugenedav]

Yeah he never folding there I shoved on the turn similar situation He had qj of diamonds I had 87 I bet 10k he calls turn blank I knew it was a draw I shove for massive stack he tank calls its so massive hit the flush on river. We were the two big stacks that's why I didn't understand the call. But he didn't cash either with 20 left.

 

[AKQ]

if your opponent called the turn all in overbet
He would have done the same if not more so on the flop
so no that does not deny him equity

i like the flop cbet
but the turn shove makes no sense
you didn't improve your hand only picked up a draw
The logic of "he is drawing" is flawed
(many people will check to the original raiser with top pair and flat call out of position)

I would have just bet another 1/3 to half pot getting value from the flush draws 25% equity to win

You did great actually!!!
you gave him maximum fold equity(which is my fav)
he didnt use it lol
instead he donked it off
you got him all in on a draw
but don't think thats gonna be the case everytime
alot of hands beat you


what the river card was shouldn't even be discussed

 

[tzuriel]

if your opponent called the turn all in overbet
He would have done the same if not more so on the flop
so no that does not deny him equity

i like the flop cbet
but the turn shove makes no sense
you didn't improve your hand only picked up a draw
The logic of "he is drawing" is flawed
(many people will check to the original raiser with top pair and flat call out of position)

I would have just bet another 1/3 to half pot getting value from the flush draws 25% equity to win

You did great actually!!!
you gave him maximum fold equity(which is my fav)
he didnt use it lol
instead he donked it off
you got him all in on a draw
but don't think thats gonna be the case everytime
alot of hands beat you


what the river card was shouldn't even be discussed

Thanks for the response. I appreciate the tips!

 

[tzuriel]

I would not shove on the flop. Its too much of an overbet to jam there being maybe somewhere around 3x overbet given the effective stacks. We would want other hands to continue besides just draws and draws will probably even fold to that large of an overbet meaning most of the time and against most opponents, when you jam flop you will only get hands that are beating you to call. Now, It is possible you could get small 10x hands to fold if you rip there. That would be an upside to the move but I like betting more the way you did (even slightly larger than you did) and think more about jamming on the turn (if you even plan to jam as mid pair here to me is more of a bluff catcher hand than a jam it in hand but heads up any pair is strong).

The turn sets up more for a jam if you want to go that route given the stack sizes but the turn is also a great card for you in a sense you have less cards to worry about given your flush draw. I think the only hands that would call this (that we beat) are flush draws and only strong flush draws at that so even though non club overcards are bad for a potential river I think I check here and bluff catch river. I will say though in my opinion, if you are going to bet on the turn you should just put it in given any decent size bet commits you on the river given the effective stack.

Thanks HP. Always nice to hear from you!

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Standard open.

Flop
C-betting and checking back both have merits on this flop. You have showdown value, but your hand is generally not strong enough to play for stacks, so checking back would be totally reasonable. Betting does have advantages also, mainly that it deny equity to random overcards, if he fold a hand like KJ. Or you get value, if such hands call.

Turn
At this point I think, your hand is a very clear check back. Your hand is to in between to jam here, since he is rarely folding a better hand, and only a few worse hands call, like the one he had. Its very common, that people get confused, when they have both a pair and a draw, but usually the pair is more important that the draw. When you jam here, you significantly reduce the value of your pair and play the hand almost like, it was just a draw. But your pair still has showdown value, so try to take it to a cheap showdown, or maybe hit one of the many cards, that improve you, since you now have a 12 out draw plus outs to trips or two pair.

Results
The goal in poker is not to win the hand, the goal is to win chips. Not in this individual hand but in tousinds of hands. Its completely fine, that he made his flush and won, but the issue is, you lost to many chips. If you had checked back the turn, then he would probably lead the river, and on this card folding could be a completely reasonable option depending on his sizing. Or if he go small, you can call and try to catch a bluff and still lose much less, than you did.