$1.50 NLHE STT: Overpair vs check/raise on a wet board

L

LuisBoaC

Rock Star
Joined
May 17, 2017
Total posts
220
Awards
1
Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 21/13/1

First level of a 9-max SNG. I have played against Villain before, the HUD stats listed above are from 245 hands. I believe him to be a tight aggressive reg.
Pre-flop I open.
I c-bet the flop for value and - the main reason going through my head at the time, I remember - protection against straights and flushes.
When Villain check/raises I have him on a vague range of some pocket pairs; A-x flush draws and flush draws with one pair; A-x hands where x is paired by the board or an overcard (especially ones with Diamonds); and maybe some straight draws.
To be honest I was tilted at the time, having been outdrawn too often in the recent past (don't be results-driven, I know). I really expected him to have a flush draw, probably with a pair or the Ace of Diamonds. My tilt had me focused on just one part of his range.

pokerstars, $1.29 + $0.21 - Hold'em No Limit - 15/30 (4 ante) - 9 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 2,180 (73 bb)
UTG+1 (Hero): 1,467 (49 bb)
MP: 1,375 (46 bb)
MP+1: 1,207 (40 bb)
LP: 1,324 (44 bb)
CO: 1,440 (48 bb)
BU: 1,430 (48 bb)
SB: 1,637 (55 bb)
BB: 1,440 (48 bb)

Pre-Flop: (81) Hero is UTG+1 with A A
1 fold, Hero raises to 90, MP calls 90, 1 fold, LP calls 90, 4 players fold

Flop: (351) 8 J 7 (3 players)
Hero bets 240, MP raises to 600, LP folds,
Hero raises to 1,373 (all-in), MP calls 681 (all-in)

Turn: (2,913) 6 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (2,913) T (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: 2,913

Showdown:
UTG+1 (Hero) shows A A (a pair of Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 87%, Flop: 56%, Turn: 0%, River: 0%)

MP shows J A (a flush, Ace high)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 13%, Flop: 44%, Turn: 100%, River: 100%)

MP wins 2,913
So I shoved, quickly and angrily. I don't think it was the right play. What would you have done? And if you saw the next card and it was a Diamond what would you then be thinking? Tough I know as it would depend on V.'s actions. But maybe I won't play so scared (i.e badly) of flush draws if I have a better idea of what to do when they come in!
 
3

300HPGOD

Legend
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Total posts
1,174
Awards
10
I know we are going against two opponents on a wet board but im not sure I would be betting as large as you did on the flop. Not saying that it is a mistake but I think going smaller gives you more options. We start the hand with less than 50 BBs as many sit n gos we arent going to be starting that deep. On face value I dont mind going with a hand when we start 50 BBs deep and the SPR is 4 the problem here though is with a person still to act behind us villain is raising us and I dont think it is ever a bluff. This at worst is a flush draw and given that villain called a raise pre those cards should be higher in the deck as opposed to 43 or 56 which leads me to think they might also have backdoor straight draws as well.

Since you have played the villain you must think about what the worst hand they could have here given the action that they would do this with. Its a hand we are ahead of but not crushing and there are hands that do this that are crushing us. One thing is for sure to me and that is we are either folding here or jamming here. I dont think it makes sense to call and then try to get the rest is a diamond doesnt come on the turn. Maybe we can play that way in reverse and fold when there is a diamond but I dont like that either as we are investing a lot of chips to then potentially fold. Its fold or jam to me and given the range I would put villain on its probably a fold. However, I dont know what I would do in game as I played a hand similar to this with KK just yesterday and jammed over the raise when I started the hand with 45 BBs and villain had 2 pair. If you are playing your best here I think its a fold given we are not crushing anything but 60/40 ahead at most and losing badly other times. Its exploitable yes but make a note on this villain that they did it and if this same spot comes again then bluffs are more of a possibility.
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
10,283
Awards
1
Preflop
In these 75BB starting stack SnGs, I typically only use 3BB as my raise size in the very first blind level, and if you want to keep it simply, you could also just start out with 2,5BB or something in that nabourhood and never go bigger. 1,5$ is the lowest limit for 9-mans SnGs on PokerStars, so presumably they are very soft, and raising slightly to large will not be a problem, because people dont 3-bet enough, and they call to much. But when you move up, smaller sizes will tend to work better.

Flop
This is a rather wet and coordinated board, and especially out of position against two opponents I would assume, that a solver would want us to check most of our range including overpairs. A bit like preflop we could go for a more old-school exploitable line, if we think, these guys are calling way to much preflop, and also calling to much postflop and not bluffing enough.

So I dont hate this bet, but once we put it out, we have pretty much decided, that we are going to be playing for stacks. So when we get raised, for me this is a no-brainer jam. We made that decision already, when we put out the bet. We could obviously just call, but that would put almost half our stack in the middle, and I am not looking to put in that much and then fold later. So by just calling we would basically just be giving him two free cards and allow him to determine, if the rest goes in or not.

Results
So he had TPTK with a flushdraw, and more importantly he got there. Which is probably, why you have questions about the hand. But this is not a terrible outcome for us. We were actually slightly ahead on the flop, and we were getting a price, so even if we knew, he had this exact hand, our decision would still have been to jam the flop.

Getting drawn out on, when we have a big pair or another strong hand like a flopped two pair or set is just part of the game. Yet its something, which a lot of players continue to worry endlessly about. Here we were playing a 1,5$ SnG, so weather we play for fun, or we are trying to build up a track record and a bankroll, losing this money should not really matter to us. Just register for the next one and hope for better luck next time :)
 
E

eetenor

Legend
Joined
Mar 5, 2019
Total posts
1,676
Awards
1
Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 21/13/1

First level of a 9-max SNG. I have played against Villain before, the HUD stats listed above are from 245 hands. I believe him to be a tight aggressive reg.
Pre-flop I open.
I c-bet the flop for value and - the main reason going through my head at the time, I remember - protection against straights and flushes.
When Villain check/raises I have him on a vague range of some pocket pairs; A-x flush draws and flush draws with one pair; A-x hands where x is paired by the board or an overcard (especially ones with Diamonds); and maybe some straight draws.
To be honest I was tilted at the time, having been outdrawn too often in the recent past (don't be results-driven, I know). I really expected him to have a flush draw, probably with a pair or the Ace of Diamonds. My tilt had me focused on just one part of his range.

PokerStars, $1.29 + $0.21 - Hold'em No Limit - 15/30 (4 ante) - 9 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 2,180 (73 bb)
UTG+1 (Hero): 1,467 (49 bb)
MP: 1,375 (46 bb)
MP+1: 1,207 (40 bb)
LP: 1,324 (44 bb)
CO: 1,440 (48 bb)
BU: 1,430 (48 bb)
SB: 1,637 (55 bb)
BB: 1,440 (48 bb)

Pre-Flop: (81) Hero is UTG+1 with A A
1 fold, Hero raises to 90, MP calls 90, 1 fold, LP calls 90, 4 players fold

Flop: (351) 8 J 7 (3 players)
Hero bets 240, MP raises to 600, LP folds,
Hero raises to 1,373 (all-in), MP calls 681 (all-in)

Turn: (2,913) 6 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (2,913) T (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: 2,913

Showdown:
UTG+1 (Hero) shows A A (a pair of Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 87%, Flop: 56%, Turn: 0%, River: 0%)

MP shows J A (a flush, Ace high)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 13%, Flop: 44%, Turn: 100%, River: 100%)

MP wins 2,913
So I shoved, quickly and angrily. I don't think it was the right play. What would you have done? And if you saw the next card and it was a Diamond what would you then be thinking? Tough I know as it would depend on V.'s actions. But maybe I won't play so scared (i.e badly) of flush draws if I have a better idea of what to do when they come in!

Thank you for posting

Flop no action yet.

OMG terrible flop- It is wet and dynamic and you have 2 villains IP.
This seems like a one and done type of spot=75% pot lead fold to a raise or a check and see what happens= call one bet.

You lead 240 so one and done-V min raises you but it is essentially an all-in.
You should fold.

The top card is not a diamond so this V can have all Jdxd hands JT J9 QJ
V could also have T9 non flush combos and make the same min raise. 88 77
this was the V basically shoving all-in but looking like they want a call

Why- your read was the V was TAG therefore our equity vs the V's range cannot be that good when the V min raises but stack commits with that raise and we have 2 more cards to fade.

We are not using skill when we take an early flip in a tournament that is why I also suggested the check call see the turn action.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
E

eetenor

Legend
Joined
Mar 5, 2019
Total posts
1,676
Awards
1
Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 21/13/1

First level of a 9-max SNG. I have played against Villain before, the HUD stats listed above are from 245 hands. I believe him to be a tight aggressive reg.
Pre-flop I open.
I c-bet the flop for value and - the main reason going through my head at the time, I remember - protection against straights and flushes.
When Villain check/raises I have him on a vague range of some pocket pairs; A-x flush draws and flush draws with one pair; A-x hands where x is paired by the board or an overcard (especially ones with Diamonds); and maybe some straight draws.
To be honest I was tilted at the time, having been outdrawn too often in the recent past (don't be results-driven, I know). I really expected him to have a flush draw, probably with a pair or the Ace of Diamonds. My tilt had me focused on just one part of his range.

PokerStars, $1.29 + $0.21 - Hold'em No Limit - 15/30 (4 ante) - 9 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 2,180 (73 bb)
UTG+1 (Hero): 1,467 (49 bb)
MP: 1,375 (46 bb)
MP+1: 1,207 (40 bb)
LP: 1,324 (44 bb)
CO: 1,440 (48 bb)
BU: 1,430 (48 bb)
SB: 1,637 (55 bb)
BB: 1,440 (48 bb)

Pre-Flop: (81) Hero is UTG+1 with A A
1 fold, Hero raises to 90, MP calls 90, 1 fold, LP calls 90, 4 players fold

Flop: (351) 8 J 7 (3 players)
Hero bets 240, MP raises to 600, LP folds,
Hero raises to 1,373 (all-in), MP calls 681 (all-in)

Turn: (2,913) 6 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (2,913) T (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: 2,913

Showdown:
UTG+1 (Hero) shows A A (a pair of Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 87%, Flop: 56%, Turn: 0%, River: 0%)

MP shows J A (a flush, Ace high)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 13%, Flop: 44%, Turn: 100%, River: 100%)

MP wins 2,913
So I shoved, quickly and angrily. I don't think it was the right play. What would you have done? And if you saw the next card and it was a Diamond what would you then be thinking? Tough I know as it would depend on V.'s actions. But maybe I won't play so scared (i.e badly) of flush draws if I have a better idea of what to do when they come in!


Thank you for being so open about your tilt.

Jared Tendler wrote "The Mental Game of Poker" Vol 1 -2 buying these books may be very helpful to you.

You state
"My tilt had me focused on just one part of his range"

The good news is when you saw this flop you knew it was terrible for your hand.
The bad news is you were too emotionally connected to the AA hand.

There may be many reasons for this but the most common is entitlement tilt. This hand should win it is AA. We lock in this thought preflop and then cannot escape it post flop.

It is the lock in that is the issue. We can overcome this by focusing on the value of our hands post flop not preflop. That is why we play range not hand strength strategies.

In this spot OOP versus 2 V AA is seldom an 80% fav preflop.
Ex V1 JTs V2 76s AA=57% preflop
It is also very hard to get full equity realization with AA versus 2 V IP so that 57% falls below 50% due to board textures as our V should be getting us to fold to bluffs.[FONT=NotoSans, Lato, arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
2 IP V also have a lot of flop board coverage as the second V can hit all the low boards and as we saw the first V hits the middling boards. So we seldom see AA dominating on the majority of boards.

How does this help our tilt?
Preflop after we get called using the data from above we should be thinking at best we may have 50% equity on the flop. When we think like that and this flop hits we no longer over value the strength of AA KK or QQ here.

With AA KK QQ preflop we bet or raise and then we want to be thinking about flop textures- about player tendencies about stack sizes etc not about winning. We never win until the hand is over but we incorrectly start thinking of winning to soon-preflop- with these hands.

Winning feels so good it is a powerful emotion we crave it. The only way to overcome this craving is to focus on the rational step by step actions of each hand.

The first step on this flop is is this my flop- the answer is no- you knew that.
Second will my V fold- the answer is not very often you knew that too.
Third What is the most equity versus V range AA can have on this flop when raised by a TAG V?

This is where you made the error you would not have made had you given AA the possible 50% equity realization value preflop that this preflop situation required. You would not have been angry -emotionally not rationally motivated- because you would have known AA can equity realize OOP vs 2 V as low as 50% of the time.

To conclude- preparation preflop negates tilt post flop. We want to be skilled beyond raw equity. Which means we want to study equity realization strategies so we have a very firm idea of what the true equity -the equity realization value- of AA is in a NL tournament in each situation.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
L

LuisBoaC

Rock Star
Joined
May 17, 2017
Total posts
220
Awards
1
Thanks everyone for your advice. So much here for me to think about across my whole game!
And a whole new book to read as I've just ordered Jared Tendler's The Mental Game of Poker. So thanks for that recommendation too, eetenor.
 
L

leeroy818

Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 9, 2021
Total posts
31
Thanks everyone for your advice. So much here for me to think about across my whole game!
And a whole new book to read as I've just ordered Jared Tendler's The Mental Game of Poker. So thanks for that recommendation too, eetenor.



It's a great book!
 
cardplayer52

cardplayer52

Cardschat Elite
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Total posts
1,232
I think making openings to 5 or 6 BBs early is a good strat. My thinking is im tight and likely far ahead of hands that will call. I lower my openings as the blinds increase.

I like the flop bet but not the jam. Yes you may get called by some flush draws but not from a tight reg. I think bet calling is the best line to take. There are so many turns that a flush draw will continue to fire at you. I just think when you jam here you keep all the hands that got you beat in and you fold out all the bluffs.

You raise/call the flop I think you need to check/call any turn. If the 3rd diamond hits your not happy but check/call I think is the line to take. If the turn goes check/check I think I'd try to vbet the river.
 
Top