$1.50 NLHE MTT: Pocket 10's early in tourney, big pre-flop raise

[thebigdawg]

Like a lot of poker players, I find the hardest hands to play are pocket 8's-JJ. Didn't know what to do here.

Hand#3006AD881E000012 - Turbo NLH 18-max - $1.50 T11372574 -- CASH -- $1.5 + $0.15 -- 9 Max -- Table 1 -- 0/15/30 NL Hold'em -- 2012/06/28 - 15:04:54
Dealer: Seat 7
Seat 1: donkadillo (1,895 in chips)
Seat 2: muravskij (1,150 in chips)
Seat 3: baby kahuna (1,500 in chips)
Seat 4: pokerzen1234 (1,145 in chips)
Seat 5: $Aleks$ (1,880 in chips)
Seat 7: thebigdawg7 (1,470 in chips)
Seat 8: FrostyAs23 (1,480 in chips)
Seat 9: EmbroiderMan (1,500 in chips)
Seat 10: rachel1026 (1,480 in chips)
FrostyAs23: posts small blind 15
EmbroiderMan: posts big blind 30
Dealt to thebigdawg7 [Ts,Td]
rachel1026: folds
donkadillo: folds
muravskij: calls 30
baby kahuna: folds
pokerzen1234: folds
$Aleks$: raises to 150
thebigdawg7:?

This was early in the tournament, wasn't for sure to just go ahead and get rid of it, flat call and see the flop, or go over the top.

 

[xUnrated]

I wouldnt get rid of it right away. I would prefer to flat call and see what the guy behind you does. If he reraises throw it away. But see a flop probably 3 way. Then see where it goes from there.

 

[Aldito]

I wouldnt get rid of it right away. I would prefer to flat call and see what the guy behind you does. If he reraises throw it away. But see a flop probably 3 way. Then see where it goes from there.

Flatting the 5x raise is just horrible.

 

[xUnrated]

Flatting the 5x raise is just horrible.

Not with those stack sizes. So you are going over top with 10's early in the tournament with the possibility of getting reraised? or are you just folding your 10's for 120 more?

 

[BlueNowhere]

Not with those stack sizes. So you are going over top with 10's early in the tournament with the possibility of getting reraised? or are you just folding your 10's for 120 more?

Yes it is bad, flatting isn't an option.

What are reads on villian. Depending on his play either 3-bet or fold.

 

[xUnrated]

Any reasoning behind this?
Easy to say what to do, need a why behind it.

 

[The Messiah]

Ya well the answer lies on the stats of the villain who first of all limps, then we can see what the 3 betting range is of the pre flop raiser. Thus giving us an answer whether to raise/fold.
Notice call is not an option that im giving as, lets say for example that we flat, initial limper calls, and hoping no one else joins the party were at least going 3 way to the flop with 10,10 which is marginal at best,what happens when the initial raiser c-bets with an over pair if not 2 to the board and you have an opponent if not 2 to act behind you,what are we doing, are we floating, turning our hand into a bluff, were not exactly in best shape are we.? what happens when we flat call pre and we have an overpair to the board and villian c-bets,t-bets,r-bets,are we calling off,well you see thats when your telling yourself,"feck it why didnt i raise pre as villian would of jammed all in and it would of been an easy fold."
Thats why its optimum to try and ask us those questions pre flop rather than post as your answer will often lie with what to do with a certain hand and what is the most +ev line.
So yes 2 options, the answer lies in the stats.Not here.But since its fairly early in the tournament and its best to have more info in making big decisions like this im leaning towards fold.

 

[Aldito]

Any reasoning behind this?
Easy to say what to do, need a why behind it.

Calling off 10% of your stack to "see where it goes" on the flop is just poor.

You need to have a range assigned to the raiser and act accordingly.

 

[Arjonius]

Flatting basically means you're set mining. In this instance, it costs 150 to do so, and the potential payoff is about 1500, so the implied odds are around 10:1. This is only enough if you get paid off over 90% of the times you hit your set, which isn't going to happen.

And since you asked for reasons, what are yours for thinking flatting isn't terrible? Going a step farther, do you think it's the best option, and if so, why?

 

[sam1chips]

Yes it is bad, flatting isn't an option.

What are reads on villian. Depending on his play either 3-bet or fold.

There probably are no reads on the villian, the tournament just started. They have probably only played no more than 10-15 hands.
As the original poster said (and I agree), 88-JJ is probably the hardest hands to play. It almost seems like a call, fold, and re-raise are all bad plays. If you called and went into the flop 2-3 handed, you would have position on the villian at least, but you would be hoping for no overcards to hit the board. It is still very early in the tournament, I'd probably fold

 

[sam1chips]

Flatting basically means you're set mining. In this instance, it costs 150 to do so, and the potential payoff is about 1500, so the implied odds are around 10:1. This is only enough if you get paid off over 90% of the times you hit your set, which isn't going to happen.

And since you asked for reasons, what are yours for thinking flatting isn't terrible? Going a step farther, do you think it's the best option, and if so, why?

But is that assuming you need a set to win the hand? The villian could easily be doing that with AK, AQ, AJ, KQ...

 

[thebigdawg]

There probably are no reads on the villian, the tournament just started. They have probably only played no more than 10-15 hands.
As the original poster said (and I agree), 88-JJ is probably the hardest hands to play. It almost seems like a call, fold, and re-raise are all bad plays. If you called and went into the flop 2-3 handed, you would have position on the villian at least, but you would be hoping for no overcards to hit the board. It is still very early in the tournament, I'd probably fold

Exactly, no reads on the villain. All in and all I played this hand terrible. I ended up calling, 2 kings and a bunch of under-cards were on the board. Villain had pocket jacks.

 

[xUnrated]

So calling 150 is a bad play, but raising to 300+ then getting moved in on/flat called is a good play?

If he moves in its an obvious fold, if he flat calls whats his range? Disguised very well imo. Even if the board comes low we might not be ahead. Id fold before I would raise.

If he has us beat with a better PP or has AK, he probably is going to reraise so we lose everything we invested without even seeing a flop.

If he has KJ, KQ, AJ, AQ he is probably flatting, maybe betting again on the flop even if its dry. Even with no overs on the board and he has nothing, are we sure enough we are still ahead to call off chips. If so how many?

 

[Arjonius]

But is that assuming you need a set to win the hand? The villian could easily be doing that with AK, AQ, AJ, KQ...

While what you say is correct, there are lots of boards where you won't get to showdown unless you hit a set. With four possible overcards, a large majority of flops will contain at least one. Plus if you flat and the original limper calls, suggesting his range is weighted toward small to mid-pairs and possibly suited connectors, quite a few of the all small card flops connect nicely with his range.

 

[Loonbat]

The flatting is horrid ... realize that the implied odds you need to make set-mining a +cEV scenario is about 20-1. Why 20-1 is needed is because it takes into account the odds tthat you hit a set AND that the opponent has a big enough hand to continue. Without these odds, you do not want to flat.

The second problem with this hand is without proper ranging of opponent, you're sort of "stuck" if you get an 8 high flop facing a continuation bet.

I fold here and find a more profitable spot.

 

[Loonbat]

I'm not a huge fan of 3B fold, either. I used to play alot of these 2-table turbos and you cannot bring the MTT mentality into play. Tight is right early.