$1.25 NLHE Deep Stacked: KK overpair on a Q high board

[Tublecain]

$1.25 NL HE Deep Stacked: KK overpair on a Q high board

A little bit of context: it's early in the tourney and I look down at a couple of cowboys. I re-raise a limper and get one caller (someone who is somehow sitting on over 14K in chips at only the third blind level). The flop comes real dry, so I make a 1/2 pot cbet, which the villain calls. Because he's sitting on such a huge stack so early in the tourney, I'm guessing this guy plays very fast and loose, having probably gone AI several times by now to get where he is. So he's either on a hot streak, or he's a donk. My bet is towards the latter. Thus I'm pretty much guessing that he's holding anything from AQ or AK to maybe even marginal hands like KQ-JT. I'm also not giving him any credit for any real sophisticated moves at any point.

A Queen falls on the turn and I fire out another 1/2 pot bet for information. This time he pops me for a 3xre-raise. Here's where I'm not quite sure what to do. A call is out of the question, since if I do I'm left without any real info on his hand and OOP on the river, hoping to hit trips or otherwise fold to any pressure. So for me this is a raise or fold situation. And since re-raising here would pretty much pot commit me anyway, I might as well go AI. So, it's go big or go home.

Now, my gut is telling me that because he's so loose, he's probably betting strong with Top Pair, with anything from an A to garbage as a kicker. Had he had trips or even another pair since the flop, he would have shown it already. And of course had he had pocket QQ he would have gone AI before the flop. So, he's either got top pair, or is perhaps even semi-bluffing his newly acquired flush draw, hoping I've got something like a pocket pair lower than Queens, or perhaps AK.

Then again, it is still very early in the tourney and I'm lookin' good in chips at over 6k having doubled through another donk, and I may not need to unnecessarily risk my tournament life this early when all I've got is an over pair.

Any thoughts? I'll let you know what I finally did after I get a couple of responses, although from the above you can probably guess what I ended up doing. Hand is below, thanks in advance!

T.

[b]Hand Information[/b]
Full Tilt Poker - Get $600 Free No Limit, 60 BB (9 handed).
Hand History converter courtesy of [url=http://www.pokerhandreplays.com]pokerhandreplays.com[/url]

[b]Table Information[/b]
Seat: 1 Player 1 ($2505) Small Blind
Seat: 2 Player 2 ($2820) Big Blind
Seat: 3 Player 3 ($2640)
Seat: 4 Player 4 ($2595)
Seat: 5 [color=Red]Hero[/color] ($6560)
Seat: 6 Player 6 ($8740)
Seat: 7 Player 7 ($14911)
Seat: 8 Player 8 ($6370)
Seat: 9 Player 9 ($1095) Dealer
Dealt to [color=Red]Hero[/color]
[img]http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/images/poker_image/KC.png[/img] [img]http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/images/poker_image/KH.png[/img] 

[b]Preflop[/b] (Pot:90)
[i]FOLD[/i] Player 3 
[i]CALL[/i] Player 4 $60
[i]RAISE[/i] [color=Red]Hero[/color]$240
[i]FOLD[/i] Player 6 
[i]CALL[/i] Player 7 $240
[i]FOLD[/i] Player 8 
[i]FOLD[/i] Player 9 
[i]FOLD[/i] Player 1 
[i]FOLD[/i] Player 2 
[i]FOLD[/i] Player 4 

[b]Flop[/b](Pot: $630)
[img]http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/images/poker_image/9D.png[/img] [img]http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/images/poker_image/5H.png[/img] [img]http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/images/poker_image/4S.png[/img] 

[i]BET[/i] [color=Red]Hero[/color]$300
[i]CALL[/i] Player 7 $300

[b]Turn[/b](Pot: $1230)
[img]http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/images/poker_image/9D.png[/img] [img]http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/images/poker_image/5H.png[/img] [img]http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/images/poker_image/4S.png[/img] [img]http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/images/poker_image/QD.png[/img] 

[i]BET[/i] [color=Red]Hero[/color]$600
[i]RAISE[/i] Player 7 $1800
[i]??????[/i] [color=Red]Hero[/color]

 

[Jillychemung]

I agree it's AI or fold here. If he is a tricky player he may have flopped trips and with no worrisome draws on the flop he let you lead and with the 2nd diamond on the turn is ready to take it down. If he is a donk then yep I'd put him on AQ, KQ, AdXd and maybe JT.

Flip a coin or go with your gut as either a fold or an AI are about equal in my book.

 

[Debi]

I would have bet a bit more after the flop myself - probably about $500.

But yea after that re-raise I am either folding or all in - leaning towards all in based on your feelings on him.

 

[Pokemaster]

bet more on flop, all in on turn

 

[Tublecain]

Many thanks for the responses everyone! Indeed I shoved at him, and he held QJo, which gave me a nice little double up.

Regarding the comments to bet more on the flop, I thought that a standard raise is 3x the BB +1BB for each limper. In this case that adds up to 240. Should I be raising more as a rule, or should I have done it in this case in particular because I was up against such a monster stack? I'm confused!

Thanks again, and best of luck out there!

T.

 

[Debi]

That is your standard raise pre-flop but post flop is a different story. You should then be betting on percentages of the pot. And with this hand I would be making slightly less than a pot-sized bet post flop. You bet about 1/2 of the pot and I think about 2/3 is a better bet there.

I am messy and don't bother with the exact amount that is why I said $500 lol.

 

[Tublecain]

Ah, I see what you're saying! I mis-read and thought you said that you'd bet more ON the flop, not post-flop. Chalk that one up to carelessness on my part Yes, my c-bets are almost always 2/3 of the pot at least, and I agree that I shouldn't change it up based on hand strength... But I'd like to try and explain myself if I may...

The flop is sooo dry to this guys likely range, and I'm almost 100% certain that I either have the best hand at this point or he spiked a set (way ahead or way behind), so I really want him to call. Of course there's the off chance he's hit a set, and all things considered I really "only" have an overpair. By betting slightly less on the flop, if he comes back over the top, then I can begin to consider a fold (putting him on a set), and still conserve a very healthy stack size for this stage of the tourney.

If he just flat calls (which given his "loosness" I expect him to do) that's where I assume he's either got marginal overcards with some kind of a backdoor draw, and can then punish him for chips on the turn unless it's an A (in which case I'd also consider slowing down/folding). I was lucky that it was a Q which probably gives him at least a pair and possibly a draw, and can now easily shove and reasonably expect a call with a marginal hand from the huge donk stack.

But, looking back at the hand and especially thinking "long-term" I can see that I probably should have just stuck to my usual plan, raising the standard 2/3 of the pot as a c-bet, growing the pot and pricing him in for a call with marginal holdings on the turn. I'm lucky it worked out in my favor this time around. Thanks again for all the responses!

 

[Jillychemung]

If your c-bets vary from 50% to 75% of the pot on a somewhat random basis then making your c-bet here less than 50% isn't too bad (IMHO losing some value) but if your c-bets have always been 2/3 of the pot then your change here may alert your opponents. Granted your read on this specific opponent suggests it wouldn't be noticed but other players on your table may have taken note.

 

[toogood2k]

dunno,i think there can be AQ or A9 at that moment. Just flat call and check on river if ur not sure about him.

there is also no no flushdraws/straightdraws on flop, mybe when he saw turn card he tryed to trap you hitting his draw hand