$1.20 NLHE STT: Top 2 Pair all in on flop?

Clambake420

Clambake420

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$1.20 NL HE STT: Top 2 Pair all in on flop?

I always analysis all the hands i lose trying to find a better way of playing it and this is one of those hands that i feel like it was the right play i just got unlucky but i always like to make sure there was or wasn't a better option, so im curious what you guys think.

The villain has been min raising a HUGE range of hands from all positions. He has been making very weak awful calls when people 3 bet/shove on him with hands as low as Q2os.

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, 1.2 Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

Hero (BB) (t2875)
UTG (t2500)
MP (t3755)
Button (t1350)
SB (t3020)

Hero's M: 9.58

Preflop: Hero is BB with
kh.gif
,
tc.gif

1 fold, MP bets t400, 2 folds, Hero calls t200

Flop: (t900)
ts.gif
,
kc.gif
,
2d.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets t400, Hero raises to t1200, MP raises to t2000, Hero raises to t2475 (All-In), MP calls t475

Turn: (t5850)
ah.gif
(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t5850)
9d.gif
(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: t5850

Villain shows AA




I was looking for a check raise when the flop fell. When he re-raised my bet i felt pretty sure his range included AK and even AA here. I got rid of straight draw hands like QJ here since i feel like he woulda shoved on me instead of just reraise. So knowing this would you have done anything differently where i might of been able to get away from the hand and still have chips to battle to the money. Maybe could of flat called and got away from a scare card like the Ace, but that just didn't seem to make much sense against this weak player. Probably just one of those unlucky turn card situations.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Who cares about the flop, pre flop is the street that matters here.

And don't include the results of the hand. Read the stickies FFS. You know, that thread that has in all caps "READ THIS BEFORE POSTING" in the title.
 
OzExorcist

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Either shove or fold preflop IMO, with a big preference for folding. If villain really is as bad as you say then we should get plenty of other opportunities to take his chips in higher percentage spots. Flatting preflop just leaves us open to having to check-fold all the flops we miss, which will be most of them.

As played the money obviously goes in on the flop - villain is a drooler and 22 is the only really plausible hand that beats us.

Plus what c9 said, please don't include the results of the hand in the first post. Just leave it at the point where you've got the important decision.
 
Clambake420

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my bad sorry i even posted this.
 
OzExorcist

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my bad sorry i even posted this.

Don't be, it's what this forum is here for :)

The thing with the results is just that it can skew people's thinking if they know how the hand ends. In this case, for example, they might say something like "Just call the flop because you don't want to risk your whole stack here" because they know you lost. They'd be horribly, horribly wrong though so we try to avoid the issue altogether by just not posting the results.

To a large extent the results don't matter. Making the best decision you can with the information you have at the time is what's important.
 
cjatud2012

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Making the best decision you can with the information you have at the time is what's important.

Thisssssssss!

Agree with the others, calling is the worst of your options preflop. Shoving is a little too much with about 14bb's left, and 3-betting is super awkward/bad, again because of your 14bb stack, so I'd just fold. The flop looks good to me as played.
 
cjatud2012

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I always analysis all the hands i lose trying to find a better way of playing it

Sorry if it seems like we're picking on you, but just wanted to point out that you should analyze all of your hands, not just the ones you lose, since you won't be making a perfect play every time you win, even if it seems that way based on the results.
 
Clambake420

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Sorry if it seems like we're picking on you, but just wanted to point out that you should analyze all of your hands, not just the ones you lose, since you won't be making a perfect play every time you win, even if it seems that way based on the results.

haha i wouldnt post alot of my HH if i cared about people picking on me. Yea I always try and analyze all of my hands, but i seem to spend more time on the ones i busted with. I hate saying "i just got unlucky" and not spending anytime thinking about it and figuring out if there was anything i could do differently.
 
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BigThingWithHolesInIt

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I'd like to add: if you see a weak player open a pot with a min raise, they rarely have less than QQ.
Raise these only with KK or AA. Limp only in position with good drawing hands and if there are at least 4 players in the pot. Set mining is okay if you think the min-raiser plays aggressive post-flop.
Fold everything else.
 
Clambake420

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I'd like to add: if you see a weak player open a pot with a min raise, they rarely have less than QQ.
Raise these only with KK or AA. Limp only in position with good drawing hands and if there are at least 4 players in the pot. Set mining is okay if you think the min-raiser plays aggressive post-flop.
Fold everything else.

Yea i usually have this same strategy. But i watched this guy for a large majority of the tourney raising min with a large range of hands that were pretty weak. But yea this whole play goes against my standard way of playing, i never play K10 unless im opening the pot with position and its 5- handed. but you guys are right i should never have limped his preflop min raise. Fold or Raise pre leaning heavily towards folding.
 
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WiZZiM

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Pretty standard fold preflop.... 3betting isn't great with reads, as he will call us to light, so we need a stronger hand to reshove over with then KTo.
 
OzExorcist

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I'd like to add: if you see a weak player open a pot with a min raise, they rarely have less than QQ.
Raise these only with KK or AA. Limp only in position with good drawing hands and if there are at least 4 players in the pot. Set mining is okay if you think the min-raiser plays aggressive post-flop.
Fold everything else.

I've gotta disagree. While it might be true for some weak players, there are loads of others that will minraise with a huge range of hands. Some will do it with sooted aces, some with two paint and some with almost ATC. Failing to raise at least AK / JJ+ against them would be a leak IMO.
 
M

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kten ? ugh, seemed like u put ur personal feelings about this villian ahead of what u shoulda done. just fold preflop.

on the flop what are u gonna do? they just got lucky on u. but u kinda set urself up by calling em with kten preflop when u just really didnt need to do that . . . like alot of ppl said here.
 
fletchdad

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My 2 cents. I agree with Oz about having to see a min raise from a loose player as having a wider range, and playing accordingly. But KTo is not a hand you want to raise with with your stack on this table, and just calling here is also not a good decision IMO. Even with your read on this player, you are in great shape to chose a better spot. Too many flops can improve villain here, and we are not strong enough to believe we will certainly be ahead after the flop comes. Even with your read on him, I think patience and waiting for a better situation is the way to go here. FWIW, post flop play way fine, but that shows why PF was not. Your speculative pocket was impossible to get away from on the flop, and from the way you described him, I see 22, QJ as well as A2, A9 in his range, just so many ways to lose to this type of player, and its hard to fold this flop here, so when you make this kind of decision PF, it leads to situations like this where you lose all your chips to an unfold-able but losing situation.
 
Clambake420

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My 2 cents. I agree with Oz about having to see a min raise from a loose player as having a wider range, and playing accordingly. But KTo is not a hand you want to raise with with your stack on this table, and just calling here is also not a good decision IMO. Even with your read on this player, you are in great shape to chose a better spot. Too many flops can improve villain here, and we are not strong enough to believe we will certainly be ahead after the flop comes. Even with your read on him, I think patience and waiting for a better situation is the way to go here. FWIW, post flop play way fine, but that shows why PF was not. Your speculative pocket was impossible to get away from on the flop, and from the way you described him, I see 22, QJ as well as A2, A9 in his range, just so many ways to lose to this type of player, and its hard to fold this flop here, so when you make this kind of decision PF, it leads to situations like this where you lose all your chips to an unfold-able but losing situation.

Yea totally agree i picked an awful spot to play against this player. I think one of my weaknesses is loosening my range up against players like this when i should be waiting for much better spots to maybe lay a trap and take him down that way. I did the same thing in a home game, same situation, same hand, same type of weak player, got river burned...wont be playing K10o anytime soon. haha.


As far as Mr. Whatever posted...You are right. emotions is something i been working at removing from my game and this might of well been one of those spots, just got tired of him min raising so i went to a flop with him. dumb.

Thanks all, this situation so much clearer now and i will not be making the same leak again.
 
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