$1.10 NLHE STT: DoN: busted out first hand, should I have seen this coming?

Propane Goat

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Blinds and antes are 0/10/20.

Hero is in BB with :ac4::9d4:.

UTG raises to 40.

UTG+2 calls.

Folds around to Hero, Hero calls 20.

Flop: :9s4::6s4::4h4:

UTG bets 86.

UTG+2 calls 86.

Hero calls 86.

Turn: :ah4:.

UTG checks.

UTG+2 bets 120.

Hero raises to 240.

UTG folds.

UTG+2 calls 120.

River: :2c4:

Hero bets 300.

UTG+2 shoves all in.

What do you think villain has here? Would you fold?

Your opinions appreciated.

Hero calls

Villain shows :4c4::4s4:.

I'm forced to give up on this site for now because that was pretty much the last of the freeroll money I had on there. I don't know what's going on, it seems like I'm taking three steps backward for every step forward in my poker education and making one horrible play after another.

Lost the previous one exactly the same way, flopped TPTK and ran into a flopped set.
 
jaworek1405

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You have very strong hand. I don't see escapy here and I wouldn't fold this hand. Only sets and 35 win with you. I play similar to you, raise on the turn should be a little more like 300. river - hero should call IMO. It happens, take care:)
 
BluffMeAllIn

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I'd say an unfortunate turn out, probably would happen to many when sitting in the game.

From outside the game I guess one could look and see in the situation of a DON it is a game of survival so on the office chance your opponent has the set or more unlikely straight then the safest bet for survival would have been to check back the river rather than making the 300 bet. You don't specifically mention that it was checked to you on the river as in your history you have indicated you bet 300 and was pushed on by UTG+2 however in all previous streets UTG and UTG+2 acted prior to you.

Either way a hard spot really, but in a DON when its cheap pre you can tend to get a lot of people set mining. Also even though it was a minraise pre to a raise and caller I'd probably consider folder the A9 given you there is a pretty good chance your against a stronger A. Just my thoughts on how it played out, DON's are a very tight game of survival.
 
A

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Fold pre. It's DoN and villain's opening range has you crushed.
As played, he just minraised, one more opponent called, so let's say you had decent pot odds so you called.
However, I'm never folding in this particular spot. I'f it was $10 DoN, and we were up against a rock, I would consider folding, but this is never a fold in $1 DoN.
 
Propane Goat

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You don't specifically mention that it was checked to you on the river as in your history you have indicated you bet 300 and was pushed on by UTG+2 however in all previous streets UTG and UTG+2 acted prior to you.

I forgot to include that, I was first to act and initially checked both post-flop and post turn. I was thinking UTG+2 had something like AK/AQ when he bet the turn so I check-raised with top two pair.

I've heard about playing DoN's super tight, especially in the beginning, but at what point do you open up your range? I keep winding up as the short stack on the bubble and busting out waiting for something better than Q7 or K4, while other people are building up huge stacks calling all-ins with hands like T8o.

Thanks for the help, everyone.
 
A

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I keep winding up as the short stack on the bubble and busting out waiting for something better than Q7 or K4, while other people are building up huge stacks calling all-ins with hands like T8o.

Neither of that is correct. You shouldn't be waiting for a premium hand to shove. Remember, you can shove wider in blind vs blind situations, especially when the blinds are large. K high or A high is often good enough to shove with from the SB if it's folded to you. Also any two broadway cards sometimes. It all depends You must put pressure on your opponents and keep a decent stack size. You should steal more and be more aggressive.
Also you should rarely call an all in.
Play tight in the beginning, loosen up in latter stages.

Post some HH and Blind vs Blind situations for analysis if you want.
 
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BluffMeAllIn

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Ok, makes more sense then. Yes you would certainly figure the opp has a big ace in that situation although if they are playing a good DON strategy themselves I don't see just TPTK pushing the river probably just a call of your raise.

Yes DON"S can be somewhat tricky, and I hear what you are saying and have felt the pain especially in the Fifty50 on stars where its not just the survival but chip accumulation that matters as well. I think the key in the DON is to try and maintain at least your starting stack through the stages to the bubble (or at least not to lose any big chunks of it), however tight is key because attempting to steal blinds when they are so low is -EV really.

Once the blinds start to increase is where you need to pick spots and attempt to steal, now it depends on the table dynamic's. Sounds like your tables are fairly loose if they are calling all-in's with T8o (in which case trying to steal from such an opponent isn't going to work). Essentially if you are the button and sb bb are faily tight once blinds hit even the 50/100 point a 225 bet can often steal if you have been faily inactive/tight up to that point.

Hopefully things turn around in your DON grind, where might I ask be you playing these (I see carbon as your plays at, is it there). I know I tried playing some on lock last night (placed in the freeroll) and just waiting for a 1.5$ don to start was painful so ended up going to play cash to find they have 4nl and no 2nl (i believe carbon is the same right?). I played like 2 DON's, got there in 1 got sucked out in 4th on the other and wanted to play a 3rd to try and get me up on them but was just me and another for a good 15minutes without anyone else so I unregged.

wishes of luck and run good.
 
Propane Goat

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I appreciate the help everyone, I've been playing these on Carbon because they usually have decent traffic up until about 11PM Pacific. I've rarely had to wait more than a minute or two for a game to get started.

One other thing that's been frustrating me with these is repeatedly being on the bubble with 10BB or less, and getting a hand like A6 in the SB or in late position that I intend to shove with but somebody will shove ahead of me with a bigger stack and I have to fold it.

Question: if on the button with rags in an unopened pot, blinds are 50/100 or higher and you have ~10BB left, would you try to steal/shove against tight blinds or just fold?
 
BluffMeAllIn

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Question: if on the button with rags in an unopened pot, blinds are 50/100 or higher and you have ~10BB left, would you try to steal/shove against tight blinds or just fold?
In many cases a standard raise will get you the same info there, or even a 3x raise. If you get reshoved then in most cases you would have been called if you had gone all-in so you now can fold. However if you get pushed on and you plan to call anyways then yes, always shove for max pressure and fold equity.

On that same note, if one of the blinds are a big stack say 4-5k in chips in that situation it could also be risky because there may be a good chance that they call looser for the chance to knock you out and end the game given that losing the 1k isn't going to put them in a ss situation. So as always depends on the table dynamics, but yes 10bb on the button would certainly be a spot to push and steal when blinds have hit the 50/100 and beyond.
 
Propane Goat

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In many cases a standard raise will get you the same info there, or even a 3x raise. If you get reshoved then in most cases you would have been called if you had gone all-in so you now can fold. However if you get pushed on and you plan to call anyways then yes, always shove for max pressure and fold equity.

On that same note, if one of the blinds are a big stack say 4-5k in chips in that situation it could also be risky because there may be a good chance that they call looser for the chance to knock you out and end the game given that losing the 1k isn't going to put them in a ss situation. So as always depends on the table dynamics, but yes 10bb on the button would certainly be a spot to push and steal when blinds have hit the 50/100 and beyond.

Thanks for the tips, I think I definitely need to re-think my approach to these and try to untilt too. I had a pretty long string of situations where I would push something like AJ and be crushed by AK in the blinds, for example, or when I had AK and pushed it would get beat by something like KT making a pair on the river. I started playing timid because of this and that never helps either.
 
dmorris68

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Hard to say for sure without more villain info. But I'm confused by your HH and am surprised nobody caught it: The preflop part of your HH indicates you're in the BB ("Hero is in BB with..." and "Folds around to Hero..."), but the postflop action has you in position behind UTG and UTG+2? Then on the river you're OOP again?

Whether you're IP or OOP makes a big difference here. Flatting OOP with a minraise and a call in front of you with such an easily dominated hand is dangerous. You get sucked in by the nice pot odds, but when you catch it sets you up for hard decisions. It's best in a DON to preserve your chips for reasons I'll point out below. Note I didn't say be a nit, because IMO that's a hugely exploited tendency in a lot of DON players. But if you're going to play a vulnerable hand like this, you need to do so from position. From your HH I can't tell if you had position or not. First hand of a DON is generally not where you want to be playing bloated pots with marginal hands like A9o, especially OOP in 9-max games (I'm assuming 9-max since Merge killed 6-max DONs as I recall).

So, OOP it's a fold preflop. But let's say you're OTB and are trying to see a cheap flop IP. A9o is a hand that doesn't play well post flop, so you really need to narrow your villain's range. On the flop, TPTK might look good, but your TP isn't all that great. Had you raised the flop, villain would have called or maybe even come over the top, which should have slowed you down by narrowing villains range to overcards, overpairs, sets, and nutty flush draws.

As played, when you bink the turn with T2P, it's going to be hard for most players to get away from, especially when the river blanks like it did here. When villain comes over the top of your river bet, sure it could be a busted flush draw, but that's more likely in a cash game than DON where people are inclined to be tight and conservative with their chips. This is a pretty classic WA/WB (way ahead/way behind) situation. 53 should never show up in this spot (although I've seen such nonsense), which leaves me thinking I'm against a set, but also possibly AK/AQ type hands if villain is particularly reluctant to lay those down. So by playing such a marginal hand (especially if OOP), you've set yourself for a difficult decision when blinds were low and stacks were deep.

6-max DONs are my bread and butter these days. A successful DON strategy is quite different from a successful SNG strategy, so even a good SNG player can make a lot of mistakes if he doesn't adjust.

Of course, like anything else, the commonly accepted strategy -- when applied too rigidly -- can be exploited. So the more successful DON players are looking to exploit 2 kinds of players: the players new to DONs who are playing standard SNG strat, and DON regs who are playing a robotic nitty DON style (which generally is very tight and risk averse on the bubble). A good DON player is constantly adjusting to both of these styles.

If I can impart a single nugget of DON strategy without getting too deep, it would be to exploit overly tight players by stealing a lot, especially from OTB and SB, while avoiding those few players who will play back at you until you have strong hands. You're goal should be to build a 3K stack as soon as you can, and in the early stages players are so tight they'll let you steal them blind which puts you well on your way to 3K. With 3K you are guaranteed the win. Let me repeat that: YOU CANNOT LOSE WITH A 3K+ STACK. No matter what anyone else has. Obviously you can win with less, but you will have to work proportionally harder to do so. Once you have a safe stack, then you bully people on the bubble.

So in a nutshell, in DONs you should seek good spots in position to chip up without overextending yourself with mediocre hands when someone plays back at you. Then abuse the bubble if you have a safe stack, else avoid bubble confrontations against big stacks. Also a good rule of thumb if you're a short stack on the bubble and the big stack is stealing everyone blind. LET THEM! The big stack getting bigger in a DON doesn't hurt you. You're not trying to beat him, you're trying to beat just one other player. So don't feel like you have to play back at a big stack's wide range like you would in a SNG where 1st place is in contention, especially as your fold equity dwindles substantially.
 
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BluffMeAllIn

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Hard to say for sure without more villain info. But I'm confused by your HH and am surprised nobody caught it: The preflop part of your HH indicates you're in the BB ("Hero is in BB with..." and "Folds around to Hero..."), but the postflop action has you in position behind UTG and UTG+2? Then on the river you're OOP again?
It was cought....I had asked it above in regards to how he acted first on river but last in previous streets......below was the response (hope i manually quoted it correctly).
I forgot to include that, I was first to act and initially checked both post-flop and post turn. I was thinking UTG+2 had something like AK/AQ when he bet the turn so I check-raised with top two pair.


A lot of great points in your post DM as always, thanks.
 
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I always try to keep pot control, when I can't I smell that somethings not right. I wouldn't want to go all in if I had 2 pair, when we are bigstacked and against a person I don't know. The call is no bad, because he could have a draw, and just shove as he sees he has little chances of completing it and want to take the pot with a bluff. But well, it was kinda of a cooler
 
dmorris68

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It was cought....I had asked it above in regards to how he acted first on river but last in previous streets......below was the response (hope i manually quoted it correctly).
Oops, I missed that, and I did scan back through before replying.

In that case... fold preflop.

Also, check/calling as a general rule is bad and should be avoided, outside of calculated attempts to allow a LAGtard enough rope to hang himself.
 
donkysnake

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lol, how can anyone fold top 2 pair in such a clean flop ... bad luck for u
 
Propane Goat

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Oops, I missed that, and I did scan back through before replying.

In that case... fold preflop.

Also, check/calling as a general rule is bad and should be avoided, outside of calculated attempts to allow a LAGtard enough rope to hang himself.

Wow, I really appreciate the detailed info...I've been making tons of mistakes I didn't know about and looking back I think I've been playing these strategy-wise more like an MTT than anything else (which doesn't say much because I'm still full of leaks in those too.) It did vaguely occur to me that I might be facing a set when the villain shoved but I didn't take it seriously because I didn't want to think that I was beat, this has been one of my biggest problems in the past and still is.

Again, thanks, this is definitely material that I will be referring to many more times in the future.
 
Propane Goat

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Well, I took the few dimes I had left on this site and ran it up a little bit with $0.11 hypers, then decided to try another $1.10 DoN.

Was completely card dead, managed to steal a little bit and then ran into this train wreck. Wondering if I shouldn't say to hell with poker for a while.
 

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hobonc

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Tough break there Goat. A couple days off can't hurt. It's hard when you hit a downswing. I know a break usually makes me feel better when I return.
 
newbie in training

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Dang that must hurt...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 2
 
mapt02h

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I used to play 6 handed DoNs, I'd say that's a fold pre. Not expert in 10 max by any means!

Also, the one time I was seriously on tilt was in a hyper turbo sat to sunday storm (top 2 paid). 3 left, my opp shoves into bb who calls. 77 against AA. I folded 76. Villain spikes the one outer.

Next hand, 33 vs my 88. He gets his three. FML.
 
Propane Goat

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Since this thread is back up on top again, I just wanted to say a huge THANK YOU to everyone who helped me with DoN's.

I've made some changes and things have been going very well, before I was cashing in only 2/5 or less and constantly being either the first or fourth to bust out, but now it's been going much better. I've cashed in 9 out of the last 10 played, it will take a lot more games than this to really see where I'm at but at least my bankroll is going in the right direction. What's really interesting is watching others bust out early making the exact same mistakes that I was making.

Thanks again CC!:love:
 
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