$1.10 NLHE MTT Turbo Rebuy: Unknown opponent shoves on unpaired flop

[Matt Vaughan]

No Limit Hold'em Tournament T200/T400
Buy-in: $1 Dollar Dazzler - $600 Guaranteed
Merge Network
9 players
Formatted by pokercopilot.com - Mac OS X hand history analysis and tracking

Stacks:
UTG - Hero (T35,168)
UTG+1 - UTG+1 (T13,454)
UTG+2 - UTG+2 (T21,846)
MP - MP (T19,252)
MP2 - MP2 (T13,555)
CO - CO (T10,254)
BTN - BTN (T16,462)
SB - SB (T13,200)
BB - BB (T20,754)

Preflop: (T960, 9 players) Hero is UTG with
Hero raises to T1,600, 7 folds, BB calls T1,200

Flop: (T3,760, 2 players - BB: T19,114, Hero: T33,528)
BB bets T19,114 (all-in), Hero??

Spoiler

Hero calls T19,114

Turn: (T41,988, 2 players - BB: T0, Hero: T14,414)

River: (T41,988, 2 players - BB: T0, Hero: T14,414)

Total Pot: T41,988
BB shows (As 9s)
Hero shows (Th Ts)

Hero wins T41,988

Are we even remotely concerned about a set here??

 

[duggs]

not hugely when he shoves it,

I mean his bet sizing indicates he is bad, and he has alot more 87,9T, JT QJ, A4 A8 A9, K9 K8 etc. than he does sets, id call just because of the buy in and bet size.
QQ+ prob 3bets pre, and sets would prob check/call or c/r.
more worried about 89 tbh but against that we have much better equity.

 

[duggs]

ew dont 4x pre, i misread stack depths, i dont love it but without reads id fold it this deep v an unknown
but prob not at this buy in. ahh im conflicted.
Your range is largely overpairs, so him shoving will get looked up alot, equally we dont even know if he knows what hands are what tho.

i call but at a larger buy in id prob wtf fold

 

[Matt Vaughan]

ew dont 4x pre, i misread stack depths, i dont love it but without reads id fold it this deep v an unknown
but prob not at this buy in. ahh im conflicted.
Your range is largely overpairs, so him shoving will get looked up alot, equally we dont even know if he knows what hands are what tho.

i call but at a larger buy in id prob wtf fold

Yeah, I mean I struggle a lot because people give a lot of in depth advice (extremely appreciated btw), but at times I have to wonder to myself whether people at these levels have brains. I know I'm still learning, but a lot of these people don't seem to play logically at all.

What would you recommend pre though? I thought 4x from UTG was pretty standard? I don't really like limping with 10s and treating it like a small pocket pair, but it's also not Qs, so I know it's not really all that strong from such an EP.

 

[duggs]

near the bottom of UTG opening range this deep, but id open everything for 3x at the max. yes you are right never open limp anything (except specific bvb situations.)

 

[Matt Vaughan]

near the bottom of UTG opening range this deep, but id open everything for 3x at the max. yes you are right never open limp anything (except specific bvb situations.)

But is there are reason that 4x-ing specifically here is really wrong? I've heard different perspective on bet-sizing. One school of thought being a 3x from everywhere except EP, where 4x-ing is okay. Adding 1x for each limper entering the pot before you. So is it more preference/circumstances, or do you always 3x?

 

[BlueNowhere]

I'm not folding and I doubt that he's thinking what you range is.

 

[duggs]

generally start out 3xing everywhere
drop gradually down to a min raise throughout tournament. i dont ever 4x unless its over a limper.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

generally start out 3xing everywhere
drop gradually down to a min raise throughout tournament. i dont ever 4x unless its over a limper.

Yes but I'm asking WHY that is the "only" way to do it. Because that's not what I've heard from other sources in the past. Not trying to needle you, I'm just much more interested in the thought process there than the action with no explanation.

I desperately try to avoid being at a poker table, making a play, and not really knowing why I'm doing it. Are we avoiding 4x because 3x gets the exact same job done? Do we think 4x-ing from EP will induce more 3-bets than 3x-ing?

 

[duggs]

generally speaking tournament sizing is smaller than cash sizing due to shallower stack depths, i dont like 4xing because we lose an extra bb when we fold to a 3bet, and it discourages action from weaker hands. i also think that it in turn allows our cbet to be smaller so that we have more maneuverability postflop. 4xing seems way to big and I also dislike sizing bets according to hand strength/position, its more efficient to 3x when we steal etc.

 

[duggs]

plus you can usually stack off when you 3x pre anyway, hope that helps iv never really tried to explain it before

 

[Matt Vaughan]

plus you can usually stack off when you 3x pre anyway, hope that helps iv never really tried to explain it before

Yes, that was all very helpful, thanks for explaining it further! In my own experience I've found that UTG is tricky even with premium hands, because in these micro buy-in tourneys, too many people are willing to flat along after you. No I'm not trying to get EVERYone to fold when I 4x, but it seems that when 3x-ing from UTG, too many come along for the ride.

But I'll experiment more with 3x-ing in a more standard way. Thanks again!

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

generally speaking tournament sizing is smaller than cash sizing due to shallower stack depths, i dont like 4xing because we lose an extra bb when we fold to a 3bet, and it discourages action from weaker hands. i also think that it in turn allows our cbet to be smaller so that we have more maneuverability postflop. 4xing seems way to big and I also dislike sizing bets according to hand strength/position, its more efficient to 3x when we steal etc.

in there first.

raise smaller, 3 bet smaller.. makes everything cheaper

 

[baudib1]

cawl

 

[MasterOfDisaster]

generally speaking tournament sizing is smaller than cash sizing due to shallower stack depths, i dont like 4xing because we lose an extra bb when we fold to a 3bet, and it discourages action from weaker hands. i also think that it in turn allows our cbet to be smaller so that we have more maneuverability postflop. 4xing seems way to big and I also dislike sizing bets according to hand strength/position, its more efficient to 3x when we steal etc.

Nice and totally agree:beer:

 

[baudib1]

Since stacks are reasonably deep this late into the tournament, 3xing UTG is probably OK but in general after 50/100 you should be going for around 2-2.5.

 

[MasterOfDisaster]

Yeah 3xing isn't my thing eather that I was forget to mention above, but still way better than 4xing I guess.

 

[sam1chips]

i can understand being concerned with a set or even 2 pair. the other player is in 3rd, and if he is pushing all in he has to have a strong hand or an up and down draw...
i probably wouldve called, that woulda been real tough to fold, even if it would've been the right decision

 

[Pascal-lf]

make it 900 to go pre and snap call shove