Villain stats were 14 10
Kinda loose opening by my part but I had been mostly tight with my openings.
On the turn I was debating on shoving or not, I decided that most flush/straight draws fold if we shove and I'd rather get more value from them and fold if they hit.
As played what should we do on the river?

PokerStars, $0.98 + $0.12 - Hold'em No Limit - 150/300 (40 ante) - 6 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 5,454 (18 bb)
MP: 5,452 (18 bb)
CO (Hero): 9,625 (32 bb)
BU: 15,425 (51 bb)
SB: 7,470 (25 bb)
BB: 12,589 (42 bb)

Pre-Flop: (690) Hero is CO with K♣ 8♣
2 players fold, Hero raises to 750, BTN calls 750, SB calls 600, BB calls 450

Flop: (3,240) 4♥ J♠ K♥ (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 1,200, BU folds, SB calls 1,200, BB calls 1,200

Turn: (6,840) 2♠ (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 2,700, SB calls 2,700, BB calls 2,700

River: (14,940) 2♣ (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets 7,899 (all-in), Hero calls 4,935 (all-in), SB folds

Total pot: 24,810

Showdown:
BB shows 5♥ 2♥ (three of a kind, Twos)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 37%, Flop: 39%, Turn: 32%, River: 100%)

CO (Hero) shows K♣ 8♣ (two pair, Kings and Twos)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 63%, Flop: 61%, Turn: 68%, River: 0%)

BB wins 24,810

Preflop
I think, its ok to try and steel the blinds with K8s from CO. You did however have a somewhat bad situation here with the two chip leaders left to act behind you, and one of them with position on you. If BTN was a very active player and likely to call a lot here, then I prefer to play tighter and let this go. Its not ideal to go multiway with K8s and not even have absolute position.

Flop
You hit top pair, but you have a bad kicker, and 4 players saw the flop. This is a spot, where pot control should be your main concern, so I prefer to just check the flop and hope, BTN checks back. If stacks go in here, top pair bad kicker is rarely going to be the best hand. There is some merit to make this small bet though, essentially as a blocker bet. If BTN fold, and they other guys just call and check to you on the turn, you can check back turn, and then you are on the river having paid only one small bet.

Turn
The blocker bet on the flop worked, so this is the ideal situation for you. Check back and try to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. Yes you allow them to draw for free, but you might already be behind, and your hand is simply not good enough to play a big pot.

River
You are getting a good price, but you only beat a bluff, and you are not even closing action. So I think, this has to be a fold, and this is part of the reason, why I would have either checked the flop or as played checked the turn. With more chips back, you are getting a worse price on the river, which makes it easier to fold, and you survive with more of your stack intact.

2.5ВВ with K8s hand against three opponents ?! If you were counting on the theft of blinds - then all-in. A pair of kings with 8 as a kicker is suicide, backdoor thrips are a losing strategy. Only the flash remains. Alas, this did not happen, but now you still have a couple of kings and you have chosen suicide. Yes, the villain was lucky on the turn and river, but after the flop he has a flush draw, and at low stakes many players play out of the pot's chances, so it is natural that he went all the way. I think he will not stay long in the game, but he still moved you and you are to blame for a considerable share of this. Sorry if it was too harsh, this is just a game, nothing personal.

Hello, with k8s from the cut off I always fold this hand pre flop. I raise k8s from the button. As played - with top pair on the flop I prefer bet at least 50%, because of the flush draw on the flop. I don't want to give my opponents free card on the turn when I check the flop. The turn seems safe card and I think that I play here next bet again at least 50%. Bet for 50% of the pot is standard in my game. When you play bet less that 50% of the pot you give yours opponent good price to call flush draw. I think better play a little bigger bets in tournament for 1,1$. On the turn as I said come up safe card, but open more draws. When player from the big blind defend big blind with hand 35s, 56s or A3s ha has at least 12 outs to complete flush and some straigts. On the river if I have good stack after my bets on the flop and on the turn and I'm not commited with a pot I can even fold this top pair, because of weak kicker.

Originally Posted by mara2259

2.5ВВ with K8s hand against three opponents ?! If you were counting on the theft of blinds - then all-in. A pair of kings with 8 as a kicker is suicide, backdoor thrips are a losing strategy. Only the flash remains. Alas, this did not happen, but now you still have a couple of kings and you have chosen suicide. Yes, the villain was lucky on the turn and river, but after the flop he has a flush draw, and at low stakes many players play out of the pot's chances, so it is natural that he went all the way. I think he will not stay long in the game, but he still moved you and you are to blame for a considerable share of this. Sorry if it was too harsh, this is just a game, nothing personal.

No need to apologize.
The main reason I posted this hand is because I made mistakes and I would like to know how other members would have played it.
Your "harsh" opinion is as valued as every other analysis and opinion, but let's focus on the hand strategy and not on the results.

This is a tournament for 1.1. A 2-player bet is bad.
On the turn or push or check fold/

Originally Posted by mara2259

2.5ÂÂ with K8s hand against three opponents ?! If you were counting on the theft of blinds - then all-in.

32BB is way to much to be open jamming. With the table chip leader sitting on BTN, another big stack in BB, and this being a 1,1$ tournament, I probably just fold this preflop, since blind stealing rely on players, that will fold. And in this exact spots we are probably not getting quite enough folds. Its not like the open was a huge mistake, but we should probably look to have at least K9s or even KTs given the whole situation.

Originally Posted by jaworek1405

Hello, with k8s from the cut off I always fold this hand pre flop. I raise k8s from the button. As played - with top pair on the flop I prefer bet at least 50%, because of the flush draw on the flop. I don't want to give my opponents free card on the turn when I check the flop.

This is a common way of thinking, but its actually a little bit flawed. On the flop a made hand like top pair is only around 60/40 against a flushdraw. So you are not getting a lot of value by betting, and Villain is also never folding. The turn is where, you want to put the hammer down against a flushdraw, because now the equity is like 80/20.

This is not to say, that you should never bet the flop with top pair. But it matter here, that we have such a bad kicker. If we bet AK, we can certainly get called by worse made hands. But if we bet K8, we are mostly getting called by better made hands and draws, that we are essentially flipping with.

So we are kind of value owning ourselfes, especially when this many people saw the flop. Its different, if its heads up, because then there is less risk, someone is ahead, and people will also tend to call wider with hands like second pair or third pair.

In this spot, even though we flopped top pair, we need to see this mostly as a failed attempt to steal the blinds. If we can get to showdown cheaply, that is cool, if we can improve further, that is cool as well. But if someone else wants to play a big pot, and we still only have top pair crap kicker, we should just let it go.

i think you played well. Just got sucked out on here.
I think you should of check raised the turn, however it looks like villain was a bad player chasing a flush.

You played excellent, and got sucked out on. Nothing you can do about it. Guy should not of called the turn bet. Honestly he shouldn't of called the preflop raise

Originally Posted by xrhstos

Villain stats were 14 10
Kinda loose opening by my part but I had been mostly tight with my openings.
On the turn I was debating on shoving or not, I decided that most flush/straight draws fold if we shove and I'd rather get more value from them and fold if they hit.
As played what should we do on the river?

PokerStars, $0.98 + $0.12 - Hold'em No Limit - 150/300 (40 ante) - 6 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 5,454 (18 bb)
MP: 5,452 (18 bb)
CO (Hero): 9,625 (32 bb)
BU: 15,425 (51 bb)
SB: 7,470 (25 bb)
BB: 12,589 (42 bb)

Pre-Flop: (690) Hero is CO with K 8
2 players fold, Hero raises to 750, BTN calls 750, SB calls 600, BB calls 450

Flop: (3,240) 4 J K (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 1,200, BU folds, SB calls 1,200, BB calls 1,200

Turn: (6,840) 2 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 2,700, SB calls 2,700, BB calls 2,700

River: (14,940) 2 (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets 7,899 (all-in), Hero calls 4,935 (all-in), SB folds

Total pot: 24,810

Showdown:
BB shows 5 2 (three of a kind, Twos)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 37%, Flop: 39%, Turn: 32%, River: 100%)

CO (Hero) shows K 8 (two pair, Kings and Twos)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 63%, Flop: 61%, Turn: 68%, River: 0%)

BB wins 24,810

If you decided to barrel flop and turn after bb pushing river your call was a mistake cause you beat nothing on what he pushes.flop cb is ok but turn cb is rather small , you should bet at least 2/3 but in general with K8 your hand is rather weak for double barreling...you dont want to boost the pot cause it makes river decision too hard ...I would play this hand using one bet in multipot.if i decide to cb flop i would check behind turn unless players are loose passive in pot with me and i want to adjust my ev with double barrels.but tight players have many Kx hands like kj kt kq k9...in general vs tight you bet 1/3 flop and turn vs 2 opponents you havent enough strength to bet...another line is to check flop and bet turn but check flop looks too save cause you need to protect your k...river is quite difficult cause if you check turn and you get river bet from bb you can call but not so big...i think to call to more then 1/2 pot if opp desired to bluff his 5x...but paired deuce is hard to recognise improved trips.but most of time we are profitable to call river after check turn i suppose but the edge different differs from runouts.

Why are we playing K8s off the button with 32bb? This is the problem you encounter when you play a marginal hand like this and connect - it's hard to know where you are in the hand!

Preflop raise is too large - no sense spewing off the other .5bb when 2x will get us the same amount of folds 2.5x will get us. I know it doesnt seem like alot, but when effective stack is under 40bb there is no sense in going bigger - we just bleed off chips unless we are winning more than our fair share of pots.

Anyhow, preflop sizing is too big for me - then we have our worst nightmare happen - 3 players call and we are playing K8s multi way without position...this sucks.

We flop top pair and that's pretty much it for us - being around 30bb I think when we do flop top pair we have to go with it here and take whatever results may come - after all we put ourselves in this mess.

Moving on - flopped top pair and now - especially multi way - I would CHECK! Our kicker is sh*t, we barely beat any other combos of Kx that should be in the hand, no sense in bloating the pot, not to mention if we get called by one or more villans then we really dont know where we stand. See what I am saying? It's so easy for KT or KJ to be lurking around in this hand. So check flop, if it checks all the way around and turn also checks to you, probably safe to assume no one has a K and we can now consider betting.

Anyhow....we do bet, the bet is too small and gives flush and straight draws and smaller pairs a great price to see a turn. I would've bet about 2k here instead of 1.2k. We bet small, we do get called and its by 2 opponents and this is a disaster! Are they both really on some sort of a draw? Are the both calling with a bare second pair? Is our king strong enough to go with? As I said before, I think when we choose to play marginal hands like this when we are short and we connected with top pair or better in a hand, we need to go for it - we cannot afford to lose this pot. For these reasons and for how much is in the pot at this point I am going all in on the turn. Pot is under 7k, we have 7.6k in our stack - so our SPR is really close to 1:1 and a smaller bet here gives our opponents a great price to see rivers and anything but all in here gives great pot odds to call rivers as well.

We do not shove...we bet just over 2k which again is way too small...1/3 pot is rolling our the welcome mat for draws and asking them all to come on in. Now our stack is too small to produce any fold equity for us.

The red flag here is when our opponent leads the river all in...at these levels I believe the vast majority of players in these pools do NOT have the capability of bluffing here and more often than not it is going to be a better K, some sort of full house, or backed into trips - for those reasons I think this is a clear hero fold spot. As we see at showdown, our opponent got a great price on their flush draw, turned bottom pair and backed into trips...we priced them in and allowed them to get there on us like this.

Conclusion - in general, dont play this hand when we are so short! Play it around 40bb+ and when we do play this hand, dont get overly aggressive with it especially multi way!! We are going to be wasting chips alot by doing such.

As played - dont raise so large preflop, 2x will be fine here - do not bet the flop, it under reps the strength of our hand and allows us to pot control a marginal made top pair.
When we do bet flop - bet around 60%+ to give obvious draws a bad price to continue and setting us up a shove on the turn - after the flop bet, we MUST shove turn. We put ourselves here, we have top pair and must go with it in this instance. This is the only street where we still have fold equity and winning the pot right now will be a significant increase to our stack