$1.10 NLHE MTT: Instant fold, right?

Brodermatt

Brodermatt

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Hi guys, interesting hand. Woke up with KK on the button but the board was terrible. Would love to know how you would play this hand.

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, 1.1 Tournament, 125/250 Blinds 25 Ante (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

UTG (t49,765)
UTG+1 (t4,050)
MP1 (t7,345)
MP2 (t23,528)
MP3 (t12,625)
CO (t14,420)
Hero (Button) (t6,212)
SB (t8,947)
BB (t1,835)

Hero's M: 10.35

Preflop: Hero is Button with K
heart.gif
, K
spade.gif

4 folds, MP3 raises to t500, 1 fold, Hero raises to t1,000, 2 folds, MP3 calls t500

Flop: (t2,600) 8
club.gif
, 4
spade.gif
, A
club.gif
(2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero checks

Turn: (t2,600) 4
club.gif
(2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero checks

River: (t2,600) 3
club.gif
(2 players)
MP3 bets t500, - Instant fold, right?



Results below:
Hero didn't show, wins pot. Re-raised villain's bet from $500 to $1750. I felt the small river bet by the villain was a sign of weakness. K
heart.gif
, K
spade.gif
(two pair, Kings and fours).
 
H

hrix

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I would fold, but... it came fortunately for you, you are lucky one! I definitely would think that opp has a flush
 
R

RamdeeBen

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Make it 1100-1250 pre flop.

I don't mind the check behind on the flop because it's unlikely we're going to get 3 streets of value from hands we beat. Betting is also fine though and I'd probably lean more towards betting depending on the villain as there are plenty of worse hands that can call and of course some flush draws which we need to charge to draw.

Don't like checking back the turn though, we likely have the best hand still so need to try get value from worse hands middle pocket pairs, maybe 8x and maybe some some hands which will call a turn bet like single club draws.

Of course you can't ever instant fold although I really don't understand what you're doing on the river? Really don't like the river raise at all and think it's really bad. All you're doing is turning your hand into a bluff. I mean, you're clearly not raising for value here because you would be betting the flop/turn. Even though his bet is a min bet and likely just a bluff; you have not shown any interest in the pot at all during the hand other than pre flop and he's never going to call a raise with anything you beat. Hell, he'll probably even call with 22c which beats you. The only real hand here that might call could be 8x which again is optimistic given he checks the turn. There is a high probability he is just stabbing with any random hand that has no show down value.

Raising the river is just bad, given the way you have played the hand it makes no sense. I'm interested in hearing what your thoughts are on the river and why you choose to check behind two streets and raise one of the worse river cards?

Not to sound rude but all in all I don't like any of your play other than the flop which is ok. Prefop; the turn and especially the river are just awful.
 
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Ian the Fish

Ian the Fish

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I would have made it a bit more than 1k before the flop as well - maybe 1.2k. If he calls, most likely has a high suited connector (for example, KQ) or a monster.

Personally I believe in continuation betting after the flop comes relatively wet. So if you throw that bet out there and he calls, you can narrow his hand down to either an ace or a strong flush draw.

After that bet on the flop and the call by the villain, you can just shut down and check/fold behind, but at least this way you would have extracted a bit more information.
 
Brodermatt

Brodermatt

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I had position on the villain, which ultimately played a big part in my decision. After the flop comes I wanted to keep the betting to a complete minimum. So I was happy to check behind. When the club came on the turn, I was expecting him to bet or shove if he made a flush draw, but he checked again, showing weakness. Once the club came on the river and the villain placed a min bet, I had gut feeling that he wasn't confident. His story didn't make sense.
I had a read on my opponent and I am happy with the play.
 
H

HooDooKoo

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I had position on the villain, which ultimately played a big part in my decision. After the flop comes I wanted to keep the betting to a complete minimum. So I was happy to check behind. When the club came on the turn, I was expecting him to bet or shove if he made a flush draw, but he checked again, showing weakness. Once the club came on the river and the villain placed a min bet, I had gut feeling that he wasn't confident. His story didn't make sense.
I had a read on my opponent and I am happy with the play.
If you're confident/comfortable with your play, why bother posting this hand? If you're looking for people to pat you on the back, you've come to the wrong place --- especially when you play as poorly as you did here.

Going forward, if you ask for evaluation of your play then, IMO, you should take that evaluation seriously. If you don't --- and it certainly appears that you haven't in this thread --- why would people bother to respond?

-HooDooKoo
 
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RamdeeBen

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I had position on the villain, which ultimately played a big part in my decision. After the flop comes I wanted to keep the betting to a complete minimum. So I was happy to check behind. When the club came on the turn, I was expecting him to bet or shove if he made a flush draw, but he checked again, showing weakness. Once the club came on the river and the villain placed a min bet, I had gut feeling that he wasn't confident. His story didn't make sense.
I had a read on my opponent and I am happy with the play.

Why would you want to keep betting to a complete minimum with the second best starting hand in poker? I also did say, I don't mind checking back behind the flop.

So, why did you raise the river? For value or bluffing? It can only be for one of those reasons, which was it? Because neither makes sense. Honestly, without trying to sound rude - you played the hand dreadful. Your read makes no sense in raising because he only calls with better hands and folds all his bluffs. You also lost value from flush draws and worse hands that could of called the flop/turn. I guess if your happy with your play though, I guess that is all that matters.
 
K

kanselau

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I had position on the villain, which ultimately played a big part in my decision. After the flop comes I wanted to keep the betting to a complete minimum. So I was happy to check behind. When the club came on the turn, I was expecting him to bet or shove if he made a flush draw, but he checked again, showing weakness. Once the club came on the river and the villain placed a min bet, I had gut feeling that he wasn't confident. His story didn't make sense.
I had a read on my opponent and I am happy with the play.

This hand shows that your not playing level 3 game .
level one what do I have .
level 2 what does my opponent have
level 3 what does my opponent think I have


The thing here is , that you showed the biggest weakness, having position, seeing villain check multiple streets and still failing to bet is weak and a good villain can see this and bets a small amount to extract any value he possibly can .
This is why a river bet is just too risky. You are better off just calling this since you only have to be right one in five times.
What you actually did was to turn a showdown hand into a bluff, which doesn't make sense since your only getting called by better.
And unless villain is a nit he isn't folding a flush lightly getting 3-1.

Why doesnt his story add up ? He saw the river for free and now can have a one card flush ?

Bet more pre ,
Check flop or bet either one reasonable
Bet turn
check behind on river
 
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Brodermatt

Brodermatt

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I posted this hand because I knew 99% of you would hate this play and would create a debate. Sure, it wasn't poker played from a handbook. It was fairly unorthodox to play something like that.
I wanted to win this pot, and the only way I could win this pot was with a stone cold bluff. The villain prior was showing his cards after he won pots, every time going all in with the best hand. He played this hand completely different. If he had flush draws or hit the ace, he would of bet the flop or turn. So when he bets the minimum on the river, I feel that I can bluff my way into to him to win the pot. I felt he was weak.
Like I said, it was an interesting hand, and I think most of you would instant fold when the villain bets on the river.
 
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HooDooKoo

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I posted this hand because I knew 99% of you would hate this play and would create a debate. Sure, it wasn't poker played from a handbook. It was fairly unorthodox to play something like that.
I wanted to win this pot, and the only way I could win this pot was with a stone cold bluff. The villain prior was showing his cards after he won pots, every time going all in with the best hand. He played this hand completely different. If he had flush draws or hit the ace, he would of bet the flop or turn. So when he bets the minimum on the river, I feel that I can bluff my way into to him to win the pot. I felt he was weak.
Like I said, it was an interesting hand, and I think most of you would instant fold when the villain bets on the river.

Keep rationalizing your poor play, and have fun giving your money away.

-HooDooKoo
 
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RamdeeBen

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I posted this hand because I knew 99% of you would hate this play and would create a debate. Sure, it wasn't poker played from a handbook. It was fairly unorthodox to play something like that.
I wanted to win this pot, and the only way I could win this pot was with a stone cold bluff. The villain prior was showing his cards after he won pots, every time going all in with the best hand. He played this hand completely different. If he had flush draws or hit the ace, he would of bet the flop or turn. So when he bets the minimum on the river, I feel that I can bluff my way into to him to win the pot. I felt he was weak.
Like I said, it was an interesting hand, and I think most of you would instant fold when the villain bets on the river.

Wait, I thought you was so sure he had nothing. You essentially checked back at very strong hand on 2 streets , let him catch up and then decide to turn KK into a bluff ? You didn't need to bluff him, you just had to value bet lol.

Also, the way the hand was played by both of you I would never fold river, as he never has anything.
 
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redwards92

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Lol I love how he comes back with a smart ass reply implying everyone insta folds when getting 6 to 1 on a call vs a fish who doesn't know what he is doing.

Your raise on the river was horrible because he is pretty much never folding flushes, sometimes calling with sets or two pair because that is how bad players at this level are.

You played this hand horribly and judging by your posting history, you are a bad player.

Quit trying to act like you made some hero bluff and are the king of the poker world.

Everyone besides you pretty much agrees with each other that your river raise was horrible and that you overall played the entire hand terribly.

Who min 3bets ? That is terrible.
 
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luismacedo20

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I probably called because the MP3 could be bluffing. But fold is not played bad, depends from player to player
 
Poker Orifice

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I posted this hand because I knew 99% of you would hate this play and would create a debate. Sure, it wasn't poker played from a handbook. It was fairly unorthodox to play something like that.
I wanted to win this pot, and the only way I could win this pot was with a stone cold bluff. The villain prior was showing his cards after he won pots, every time going all in with the best hand. He played this hand completely different. If he had flush draws or hit the ace, he would of bet the flop or turn. So when he bets the minimum on the river, I feel that I can bluff my way into to him to win the pot. I felt he was weak.
Like I said, it was an interesting hand, and I think most of you would instant fold when the villain bets on the river.
So why not do this with 54o?
 
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redwards92

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Maybe i flew off the handle to personally insult you so for that I apologize.


I just don't your point in making this thread when you are not going to take any advice from anyone.

It is not a debate, everyone agrees that you played this particular hand bad.
 
Brodermatt

Brodermatt

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Maybe i flew off the handle to personally insult you so for that I apologize.


I just don't your point in making this thread when you are not going to take any advice from anyone.

It is not a debate, everyone agrees that you played this particular hand bad.

Taking all the comments on board! And yes, it was terrible. Hence why I posted it. After reading all the comments, I know that betting on the flop would have been a better option. To see where the villain is at. If he calls, I can put him on an ace or flush draw. If he raises, I fold.
Now when the turn comes and he checks, do I check behind, or bet?
And river, when he bets the minimum and the there are 4 clubs out there?
Looking back, checking the flop and turn were pretty horrible.

I really didn't want to create any drama between others. Thanks for the responses though. I can see where you are all coming from.

Yes, I am a bad player. I know that. I have joined this forum to try and improve my game.

I accept your apology, although I may have deserved it. I'm just a 22 year old kid trying to learn.
 
K

kanselau

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Taking all the comments on board! And yes, it was terrible. Hence why I posted it. After reading all the comments, I know that betting on the flop would have been a better option. To see where the villain is at. If he calls, I can put him on an ace or flush draw. If he raises, I fold.
Now when the turn comes and he checks, do I check behind, or bet?
And river, when he bets the minimum and the there are 4 clubs out there?
Looking back, checking the flop and turn were pretty horrible.
checking
I really didn't want to create any drama between others. Thanks for the responses though. I can see where you are all coming from.

Yes, I am a bad player. I know that. I have joined this forum to try and improve my game.

I accept your apology, although I may have deserved it. I'm just a 22 year old kid trying to learn.

remember this small hand small pot , big hand big pot
one pair hands are preety weak (especialy with overcards on board), keep the pot small. This is why checking back one street is a good idea , this controls the size of the pot .

Im betting the turn because my opponent showed weakness on the flop (if hes got an ace he is likely betting the flop because he doesn't want the flush to come ) he is also likely to bet if hes got a flush draw.

We do not have to bet much (controlling the pot size) on the turn to deny villain pot odds on his draws , but we are betting for value because we think we have the best hand.

By betting the turn villain is not so shore he can bluff us on the river , as we have shown some streanth , so we can give him more credit for his hand.
 
DonV73

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Hi Brodermatt,

First of all; nice read :)

Secondly; I wonder why didn't you bet the flop with that Ace, to see where you are at?
 
Brodermatt

Brodermatt

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Hi Brodermatt,

First of all; nice read :)

Secondly; I wonder why didn't you bet the flop with that Ace, to see where you are at?

Hey Don and thanks.

Good question. It was a mistake not to make a bet on the flop. I should have bet. I did have position after all.
 
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twohaha

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Shove preflop, you are short stack enough.
As played, I think checking the flop is fine, though you should bet the turn, since you are likely ahead. If you think the villain thin value bets ALOT, a river raise might not be a bad play,though it's more convincing if you already bet the turn
 
chory1414

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I probably called because the MP3 could be bluffing. But fold is not played bad.
 
IPlay

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I personally would of raised to 1,250 preflop, continuation bet on the flop and if he calls put him on a ace or strong draw and continued from there.
 
ChipEaterMan

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I would have raised preflop too
With that board i think you should fold in the river.
 
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