$1.10 NLHE MTT Bounty: Is this push to loose

[bhuelse]

Hi,

I am playing a bounty builder tournament, and I am not sure if the following push was to loose or not.

https://www.boomplayer.com/31553241_0992AC18FF

I know, when I push it will be a multiway pot, but I cover both. But is AQo enough for such a push?

greetings
bhuelse

 

[feisas7991]

Usually when i see such a question my opening line is go lower in stakes. But this time you chose perfect stakes to learn some poker basics.

When you see a limp, especially this deep it contains extremely wide range that is even hard to define. Therefor you want to blow the pot right away with your strong hands, in this instance with AQ. Make it 240-360, its up to you to choose how much you want to charge them and keep their range wide. If they dont fold at all, i recommend either going all in or make it extremely pricey.
When you see an all in you basically must call, especially when you cover him and can get his bounty.

Hope this helps, Good Luck!

 

[pentazepam]

Read-less it is certainly to loose for my taste to get all the money in this deep with AQ.

Raise more pre-flop. When you get 3-bet usually call a small one (can even fold to a big one out of position). AQs often call 3-bet. AQo fold or 4-bet ("partial bluff" since you want a fold).

But on lower stakes without read on a pre-flop maniac: just call a 3-bet (or fold if it is big).

 

[Luvepoker]

Your original bet was way to small there. All you were getting there was a bloated pot with several players in it. The small bet made the 3 bet harder to determine. My 1st though if I was in the cutoff would have a week hand you had more often that a big one. Once he 3 bets and the limper shoves my question is what worth all these chips? Your behind all pairs and dominated by AK. If against 2 smaller pairs you are at best going to win only 36% of the time here. Being over 110BB deep and risking 2/3 of your stack here when called does seem to wide of a push here. If you are expecting this to be a 3 way pot, I would fold.

 

[fundiver199]

Yes this is definitely way to loose. Even when you are good against the limper, as you were here, you still have to worry about the guy 3-betting you. And dont think to much about the bounties. Sure the fact, you had them covered, makes this a little bit less bad. But it does not change all that much, because if you lose the majority of your stack, you also lose your chance to fight for other bounties.

Also as many have said, that isolation raise is way to small. You want to knock everyone behind out of the pot and get the limper heads up to yourself. In a tournament with antes you can make it 5BB or even 6BB here and still have a pretty good risk / reward.

 

[1FatChinchilla]

Hi,

I am playing a bounty builder tournament, and I am not sure if the following push was to loose or not.

https://www.boomplayer.com/31553241_0992AC18FF

I know, when I push it will be a multiway pot, but I cover both. But is AQo enough for such a push?

greetings
bhuelse

As a fat chinchilla, I feel like you're open raise was a bit smallish with a limper, because 1 idiot limped and the pot was like 231, so you've got a limper with 4 players behind you and the big blind behind you who is usually likely to call a 127 chip raise since his blind is 60 and its only a little more for him to call, so with you're raise size you're usually looking at getting called by both the limper and the big blind a lot of times in this spot which is not good you don't want 2 callers, you want to isolate that silly limper so it's just you and him so I think in order to do that you need to raise like 210-230, maybe even a little more since its a $1 buyin tourney and crazy people always call big raises with really marginal hands in the early stages of the tourney. So maybe even open raising to 300 or 350 would be better.

If you were playing bigger buyin tourneys with higher quality players then I would say you're slightly above minimum raise was fine, good players raise on the smaller size like that all the time in higher stake tourneys, but this is a $1 buyin tourney, so you have to make you're open raise a bit bigger to ensure you isolate that limper and to ensure you get just 1 caller and that the big blind folds even though his range isn't going to be very strong most the time. VS. 2-3 callers the strength of you're AQ loses a ton of equity and is much less likely to hold up and to get value. A 220-320 chip raise isn't a lot in comparison to you're stack, you have 6,987 chips. So I'm talking in terms of this type of spot. After you raise 127 that guy re raises to 406, also it looks like he re raised very quickly and didn't take any time at all which is usually a strong indication of serious strength. Then the idiot limper jams. So yea I think its a little bit loose. I think in this spot very rarely is you're AQ going to be good here VS a re raise AND a jam, most the time one of them is going to have you dominated in a 3 way pot, so in a potential 3 way pot for you're entire stack I think it's gotta be a fold more times then not. In small tourneys like these if someone re raises you 3 times you're raise then a lot of times their going to be calling and going all in when that other guy jams for 3k.

In these small types of tourneys I just don't think that guy behind you is going to be folding too often after a re raise like that and so then you have to make you're decision I think based on the fact that the guy behind you who re raised you for 406 is going to be calling the idiot limpers 3k jam. So then I think you have to ask what are the odds that my AQ is good here against 2 all ins. Which is going to be very rarely I think. You are going to often be dominated by one of them with AA, KK, QQ, AK, and at best you're going to be flipping with 50% equity for you're tourney life against JJ, 10 10, 9 9 , 8 8, 7 7, and that's if they don't both call. If they both go all in then at best you're going to only have like 5-30% equity most of the time. You ended up having 5% equity in this spot vs AA and KJ. There's really no hands that they can both have where you dominate both of their ranges. Like what hands can the guy who re raised you have that you dominate? None really, there's a couple hands he can have where you are just flipping and a 50/50 but that's about it. And even if the guy behind you folds, a lot of times you will just be flipping here with AQ.

So the way I look at it, is its early in the tourney, you have chips, their will be better spots to get it in. Why do it? Why get it in with only 50% equity best case scenario or get it in possibly with only like 5-25% equity worst case scenario if they both go all in and the guy behind you calls the limpers jam? Either way its just not that great of a spot/scenario for you equity wise. If the other guy behind you folds then the likelihood is that you are usually going to have the idiot limp jammers range dominated in which case you should call the guy since he limped then jammed, but what are really the odds that the guy who 4 bet re raised you to 406 is going to fold to the idiot limpers jam? I just don't think the guy is folding to the limpers jam very often after re raising you, not in a 1 buck tourney like this, for him a 406 chip re raise is basically a commitment to an all in pre flop most the times, in which case its a 3 way pot all in where you are usually dominated and its a fold. Like I just don't see what they could both have that you beat.

And then if the guy behind folds like I said a lot of times you're just going to be doing a 50/50 coin flip with AQ. People do weird shit in tiny 1 buck tourneys, I've seen people think they are being tricky and limp in with AA, KK, QQ, AK then re raise jam all in and do the same thing that guy did, so while he had KJ he could also be some idiot doing the same thing with AA, KK, QQ, AK. But because the guy behind you re raised and re raised so quickly I just think its a really bad spot for AQ but I don't think its that horrific of a call really for these size tourneys. The idiot that limp jams his range is just so wide but I think the guy who re raises you to 406 his range is very narrow and pretty strong, he's basically saying he has AA, KK, QQ, JJ, 10 10, AK, in which case 4 hands in his range dominate you and the other 2 hands in his range best case scenario you are just a 50/50 flip against. I mean players in a 1 dollar tourney this early in the tourney generally aren't going to be 4 betting you with something like 9 10 suited, maybe AJ or KQ suited, maybe, but not as likely, those are the only 2 hands in his re raising range that you dominate and I think those hands are in the bottom of his range in that spot most of the time.


People in the early stage of 1 buck buyin tourneys generally don't make plays like that where they 4 bet someone with like an 8 7 suited or a 10 9 suited, or a Q J suited etc. those are hands/moves that good players in bigger tourneys will sometimes make and 3-bet with to balance out their range and to give themselves a wider range which accomplishes a lot of things one being it gives them more action from players when they do pick up a monster hand and 3-bet or 4-bet someone and it also makes it tougher for opponents to narrow their range and put them on a hand, but in these size tourneys people aren't doing all that or thinking like that. They play simple, me see very strong hand, me 3-bet lol. That's about it most the time. I don't recall seeing people 3-bet with hands like 8 7 suited, 9 10 suited, J 10 suited too often in micro stake tournies.

More times then not that guy who 3-bets you in that spot has a very tight/strong range and has you dominated. The limp jamming idiots range though can be anything from AA to J 10 suited to a tiny pocket pair and I think if the table positioning were different and if there wasn't a guy behind you who 3-bet raised you to 406 then its a call vs the limp jamming idiot if its just you and him. The guy behind you just raised you speedy as heck though, gotta pay attention to that especially in the small tourneys where people get overly excited and bet fast often with their strong hands. But if you definitely knew that it was going to be a multiway pot and you felt that the guy behind you was going to be calling you're jam also, then I think its too light of a shove, I don't see what hands they can both have where you dominate both of their hands, their really aren't any, and then best case scenario vs the 2 of them you will only have like 5-30% equity at best, that's if they have hands that you're hand is favorable against/flipping against. I mean do you really want to just get it all in with only 5-30% equity/odds so early in a tourney? But that's just my opinion bro, I used to play these types of tourneys all the time so I know how the people are in them, I play much higher stakes now and been doing alright but I'm no Erik Seidel or Fedor Holz or anything so take it with grain of salt. I am just a fat chinchilla tryin to make his way and avoid being turned into fur coat lol. Best of luck man.:icon_salu. Time for me to roll around in a dust bath:vroam:

 

[1FatChinchilla]

Yes this is definitely way to loose. Even when you are good against the limper, as you were here, you still have to worry about the guy 3-betting you. And dont think to much about the bounties. Sure the fact, you had them covered, makes this a little bit less bad. But it does not change all that much, because if you lose the majority of your stack, you also lose your chance to fight for other bounties.


Also as many have said, that isolation raise is way to small. You want to knock everyone behind out of the pot and get the limper heads up to yourself. In a tournament with antes you can make it 5BB or even 6BB here and still have a pretty good risk / reward.

This...Agreed. Well said. Pretty much summed up some of what I said but in fewer words lol. Needed to raise much bigger to isolate that silly limper and to fold out the big blind with a strong holding. He gave the small blind and the big blind a good cheap call price to try and kill the equity of his AQ.

 

[Anglermeister]

Preflop i would raise to 240. I'll fold here on a 50bb shove with AQo. There are better chances with higher bounties. I would save the chips until then.

 

[Triple Range Mergin]

As a fat chinchilla, I feel like you're open raise was a bit smallish with a limper, because 1 idiot limped and the pot was like 231, so you've got a limper with 4 players behind you and the big blind behind you who is usually likely to call a 127 chip raise since his blind is 60 and its only a little more for him to call, so with you're raise size you're usually looking at getting called by both the limper and the big blind a lot of times in this spot which is not good you don't want 2 callers, you want to isolate that silly limper so it's just you and him so I think in order to do that you need to raise like 210-230, maybe even a little more since its a $1 buyin tourney and crazy people always call big raises with really marginal hands in the early stages of the tourney. So maybe even open raising to 300 or 350 would be better.

If you were playing bigger buyin tourneys with higher quality players then I would say you're slightly above minimum raise was fine, good players raise on the smaller size like that all the time in higher stake tourneys, but this is a $1 buyin tourney, so you have to make you're open raise a bit bigger to ensure you isolate that limper and to ensure you get just 1 caller and that the big blind folds even though his range isn't going to be very strong most the time. VS. 2-3 callers the strength of you're AQ loses a ton of equity and is much less likely to hold up and to get value. A 220-320 chip raise isn't a lot in comparison to you're stack, you have 6,987 chips. So I'm talking in terms of this type of spot. After you raise 127 that guy re raises to 406, also it looks like he re raised very quickly and didn't take any time at all which is usually a strong indication of serious strength. Then the idiot limper jams. So yea I think its a little bit loose. I think in this spot very rarely is you're AQ going to be good here VS a re raise AND a jam, most the time one of them is going to have you dominated in a 3 way pot, so in a potential 3 way pot for you're entire stack I think it's gotta be a fold more times then not. In small tourneys like these if someone re raises you 3 times you're raise then a lot of times their going to be calling and going all in when that other guy jams for 3k.

In these small types of tourneys I just don't think that guy behind you is going to be folding too often after a re raise like that and so then you have to make you're decision I think based on the fact that the guy behind you who re raised you for 406 is going to be calling the idiot limpers 3k jam. So then I think you have to ask what are the odds that my AQ is good here against 2 all ins. Which is going to be very rarely I think. You are going to often be dominated by one of them with AA, KK, QQ, AK, and at best you're going to be flipping with 50% equity for you're tourney life against JJ, 10 10, 9 9 , 8 8, 7 7, and that's if they don't both call. If they both go all in then at best you're going to only have like 5-30% equity most of the time. You ended up having 5% equity in this spot vs AA and KJ. There's really no hands that they can both have where you dominate both of their ranges. Like what hands can the guy who re raised you have that you dominate? None really, there's a couple hands he can have where you are just flipping and a 50/50 but that's about it. And even if the guy behind you folds, a lot of times you will just be flipping here with AQ.

So the way I look at it, is its early in the tourney, you have chips, their will be better spots to get it in. Why do it? Why get it in with only 50% equity best case scenario or get it in possibly with only like 5-25% equity worst case scenario if they both go all in and the guy behind you calls the limpers jam? Either way its just not that great of a spot/scenario for you equity wise. If the other guy behind you folds then the likelihood is that you are usually going to have the idiot limp jammers range dominated in which case you should call the guy since he limped then jammed, but what are really the odds that the guy who 4 bet re raised you to 406 is going to fold to the idiot limpers jam? I just don't think the guy is folding to the limpers jam very often after re raising you, not in a 1 buck tourney like this, for him a 406 chip re raise is basically a commitment to an all in pre flop most the times, in which case its a 3 way pot all in where you are usually dominated and its a fold. Like I just don't see what they could both have that you beat.

And then if the guy behind folds like I said a lot of times you're just going to be doing a 50/50 coin flip with AQ. People do weird shit in tiny 1 buck tourneys, I've seen people think they are being tricky and limp in with AA, KK, QQ, AK then re raise jam all in and do the same thing that guy did, so while he had KJ he could also be some idiot doing the same thing with AA, KK, QQ, AK. But because the guy behind you re raised and re raised so quickly I just think its a really bad spot for AQ but I don't think its that horrific of a call really for these size tourneys. The idiot that limp jams his range is just so wide but I think the guy who re raises you to 406 his range is very narrow and pretty strong, he's basically saying he has AA, KK, QQ, JJ, 10 10, AK, in which case 4 hands in his range dominate you and the other 2 hands in his range best case scenario you are just a 50/50 flip against. I mean players in a 1 dollar tourney this early in the tourney generally aren't going to be 4 betting you with something like 9 10 suited, maybe AJ or KQ suited, maybe, but not as likely, those are the only 2 hands in his re raising range that you dominate and I think those hands are in the bottom of his range in that spot most of the time.


People in the early stage of 1 buck buyin tourneys generally don't make plays like that where they 4 bet someone with like an 8 7 suited or a 10 9 suited, or a Q J suited etc. those are hands/moves that good players in bigger tourneys will sometimes make and 3-bet with to balance out their range and to give themselves a wider range which accomplishes a lot of things one being it gives them more action from players when they do pick up a monster hand and 3-bet or 4-bet someone and it also makes it tougher for opponents to narrow their range and put them on a hand, but in these size tourneys people aren't doing all that or thinking like that. They play simple, me see very strong hand, me 3-bet lol. That's about it most the time. I don't recall seeing people 3-bet with hands like 8 7 suited, 9 10 suited, J 10 suited too often in micro stake tournies.

More times then not that guy who 3-bets you in that spot has a very tight/strong range and has you dominated. The limp jamming idiots range though can be anything from AA to J 10 suited to a tiny pocket pair and I think if the table positioning were different and if there wasn't a guy behind you who 3-bet raised you to 406 then its a call vs the limp jamming idiot if its just you and him. The guy behind you just raised you speedy as heck though, gotta pay attention to that especially in the small tourneys where people get overly excited and bet fast often with their strong hands. But if you definitely knew that it was going to be a multiway pot and you felt that the guy behind you was going to be calling you're jam also, then I think its too light of a shove, I don't see what hands they can both have where you dominate both of their hands, their really aren't any, and then best case scenario vs the 2 of them you will only have like 5-30% equity at best, that's if they have hands that you're hand is favorable against/flipping against. I mean do you really want to just get it all in with only 5-30% equity/odds so early in a tourney? But that's just my opinion bro, I used to play these types of tourneys all the time so I know how the people are in them, I play much higher stakes now and been doing alright but I'm no Erik Seidel or Fedor Holz or anything so take it with grain of salt. I am just a fat chinchilla tryin to make his way and avoid being turned into fur coat lol. Best of luck man.:icon_salu. Time for me to roll around in a dust bath:vroam:

Nothing else I can say really that hasn't already been said. This was a world class post. Very well thought out. OP should thank tbh for taking that much time. Think you are being too modest tho. What stakes & site you play? Nice name & pic btw. Chinchilla's are epic little creatures. I used to have one. It wasn't nearly that fat though that one is a little meatball. Is it yours?

 

[azforlife]

Your original bet was way to small there. All you were getting there was a bloated pot with several players in it. The small bet made the 3 bet harder to determine. My 1st though if I was in the cutoff would have a week hand you had more often that a big one. Once he 3 bets and the limper shoves my question is what worth all these chips? Your behind all pairs and dominated by AK. If against 2 smaller pairs you are at best going to win only 36% of the time here. Being over 110BB deep and risking 2/3 of your stack here when called does seem to wide of a push here. If you are expecting this to be a 3 way pot, I would fold.

Agreed! Well thought out answer! I agree, AQ is a tricky hand unless I'm down to 20 BB not playin it aggressive at all exc for the normal raise & C bet. Would be nice to reach that stage where I could fold AQ with an A on the board Nit level High

 

[TheDude6622]

Your original bet was way to small there. All you were getting there was a bloated pot with several players in it. The small bet made the 3 bet harder to determine. My 1st though if I was in the cutoff would have a week hand you had more often that a big one. Once he 3 bets and the limper shoves my question is what worth all these chips? Your behind all pairs and dominated by AK. If against 2 smaller pairs you are at best going to win only 36% of the time here. Being over 110BB deep and risking 2/3 of your stack here when called does seem to wide of a push here. If you are expecting this to be a 3 way pot, I would fold.

Actually, the original bet was a perfect way for you to get away from the hand. As I've said in other posts, AK, AQ, AJ, and JJ are hands that look amazing but are destroyed by a select few. When you see a 3-bet and 4-bet, that is the time to just think and then fold. You're obviously facing KK or AA in this spot, and the raises showed you that. The shove was incorrect.

 

[Veritas]

AQo is not the Hand you want to gamble with 100bb Deep stacks multiway


fold

 

[SuzdalDEcor]

The best suicide ever xD You must fold or call. But push is a worst idea.

 

[mara2259]

Looking at how events developed before and after you, I think the AQ hand is rather weak not only for pushing but also for calling, since after the initial limper went all-in, it can be easily assumed that the reraiser will not stop and call any of your bets. You are in a sandwich position and it is very significant that you lost to both opponents. I think fold in this situation is more profitable.