$1,10 NL HE MTT: $1,10 NL HE MTT: Standard Cooler or (Serious) Mistake(s)

[Andyreas]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Buy-in

1,10

Game Options

1. Turbo

Currency

$

I wanted to get some feedback on this hand. The converter doesn't let me convert it somehow, so I'll try to do it myself.

First hand of an $1.1 MTT, 6-max table, all 60 BBs.

I get dealt A♣K♣ in CO.

Preflop:
Everyone folds to me, I bet 3 BBs, BU calls, BB calls.

*** FLOP *** [A♦ T♦ 6♥] (Pot = 505)
BB checks
Hero bets 1/2 Pot
BU calls
BB calls

*** TURN *** [A♦ T♦ 6♥] [K♥] (Pot = 1261)
BB checks
Hero bets Full Pot
BU shoves
BB folds
Hero Calls

*** RIVER *** [A♦ T♦ 6♥] [K♥] [3♥]

*** SHOW DOWN ***

Spoiler: Results

AndyreasDE: shows [Ac Kc] (two pair, Aces and Kings)

vitality86: shows [6c 6d] (three of a kind, Sixes)

vitality86 collected 6445 from pot

Here's my thinking:
I bet half pot on Flop to make any potential flush draw callers pay a high(er) price. Since I get two callers, I extend the aggression after hitting two pair on board without straight potential since I assume I have the best hand.

I did not properly think before calling the shove since I doubt he shoved for a draw. But I was committed to the pot anyway, after my big bet on the turn.

My questions to you are:

• How to properly incorporate sets into opponents ranges?
• Would you generally fold two top pair opposed to a raise?

 

[300HPGOD]

Pre flop: 3x is fine but at 60 BBs 2.5x works as well. So in other words... 3x is just fine

Flop: I would not bet much less than half pot here against two opponents since there are a lot of hands that are worse than ours that will call. Two diamonds will call often, Ax will call a lot of sizings here, QJ and KJ are tempted to call, hands like K10 or Q10 with K or Q of diamonds could call plus all the suited connector hands that could play pre like 98 and 87 have a gutter as well. With all those draws out there and knowing worse Ax could call I would go at least half here but might go slightly bigger. Your half pot bet is not a mistake just saying you could prob go bigger.

Turn: You now have top two and the board is double suited. QJ got there but I am not too worried about it. When the board double suits like this and we have two pair we need to be betting on the large side. I dont think in game I make it pot but I go fairly large here. Im guessing we start with 3k in chips and blinds start at 25/50 (just a guess) so that leaves us about 2600 going to the turn. Imo, any bet sizing that we should be making it to (at least 60% pot imo) does at least come close to committing us especially if we go 3/4ths or larger. When we get raised Im with you that Im not up against a draw here but I also feel like sets and other two pairs would be raising on the flop and KK would be tough for villain to have both from us blocking and from villain only calling pre flop. I would be thinking that this is QJ or more likely K10. It also could be a hand like AJ, A9, A8 of hearts. As played we bet 1200 of what I think was our remaining 2600 which commits us so knowing that there still could be some worse hands you need to call this off as you did.

Im surprised villain had a set on the flop with that board and only called. There was a lot of draws including gutters out there so surprised they slowplayed it a bit and of course bad luck for you (as it turned out) that you nailed top two with the turn. If you started this hand deeper then maybe you could find a way out of it although it still would tough but given 60 BBs and a bet necessary on the flop and then imo a bet of good sizing necessary on the turn there is not much you can do.

As far as your questions go, I would think about what villains would do if they had a set on the flop. In this case, with this flop I would not think they would be only calling so I would discount their set potential. Your other question about folding top two to a raise depends on how deep we are, what we know about villain, the board texture, and what we have invested in the hand already. In this specific case if I had made a 60% pot bet on the turn (the smallest I would go btw) folding would run through my mind but I doubt I would given I would decipher that there are worse hands that could do this here that are not draws but are made hands. Betting the size you did on the turn no way am I folding and Im going with it without too much thought.

Overall I dont think there is too much different you can do on this hand. You needed to go large on the turn which probably did not have to be pot but it needed to be large enough to probably commit you anyway. This would be much more of a decision if se started the hand at 100 BBs deep or 150 BBs deep but at 60 with how it ran out, you're going with it as you did.

 

[Andyreas]

Thank you so much for your detailed feedback, as usual, @300HPGOD. It's highly appreciated you take the time to do that.

And good to hear my action were not totally out of the box and good to know about some further improvement is always good.

 

[PauPau]

@300HPGOD, very thanks for detailed analysis. Hope i can remember your points in this kind of situation.

 

[dallam]

I think that in our game its nice to adapt which level we 're playing on - since we don't have any information about the players, it could still tell us some expectations. So as it's an 1.1 level (6-max) people maybe wider get into actions pre, also its a turbo game, they maybe thinking that the structure let them play many suited cards, pocket pairs etc in the first period. 60bb is a proper starter stack for us, letting some space to play.

AKs is a very strong hand, the 3bb isolation bet is very optimal. Button and BB called us, so we will be heading to the party acting second. We flopped top pair, nothing really scary yet, but still a flush draw maybe straight-draw. So we have to fire up, but I would say as we 're playing an 1.1 game and suppose to see easily 2 calls, not to build that pot much. If the pot is 505chips at the moment, make this raise to 33% -35%. Half pot here screaming we're want to lay down this soon, and getting just paralised on turn when the 3rd diamond comes, but I think with these kind of 33-35% bet we let stick our bluffs ( KK, QQ with flush blocker, x10, flush-draws, 89 you know these kind of hands which can improve on turn, but we not wanna lead here that much), and process a possible 3rd Diamond on a better shape on the turn.

If we do this way, and Button is raising to us, we're calling that, and on turn we saying all-in. If these two just calls, a 75-80% bet when the K appears, but we would be out either way probably, hitting top two pairs on turn.

How to properly incorporate sets into opponents ranges?
I think this really depend on the circumstances (how many blinds you have, how you both act, notes etc). So I could go on with this case and 10-10 could be 3betting you pre, we not expect to see it calling your 3bb and set-mining. So the only combination would remain is 66. But once again when everyone is calling, we wanna believe they're holding some Ax's, flush draws etc and with King of heart we are just supposed to lead almost every time.

Would you generally fold two top pair opposed to a raise?
If the board is not paired, we still not have to think its a set,it could be top pair nice kicker, top pair with blockers, pair with flush draw,over-pair etc. We should go very big value with top two pairs, and not worry about cooled with sets.

Good luck.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Given the stakes I like raising on the bigger side of the spectrum, especially with fat value hands like AK. If this was say an $11 MTT I lean more towards going to 2,5BB.

Flop
Clear spot to bet for value, so only the sizing is up for debate. I think, at this level people are very inelastic with AX and will pay off in a big way, and I dont mind, if they fold their gutshots now. So I lean towards betting more than 50% pot here. Maybe 60-70%. It depends on pot geometry though. I want to be able to stack off without varying my bet size to much from street to street.

Turn
Like I said already, I prefer more standardized bets like maybe 60-70% on each street rather than 50% on the flop and then full pot now. QJ got there, but that should really only be QJ of diamonds, so I am not to worried about that. When he jam, you have to call it off. He could be doing this with a worse two pair, or if he is bad with a hand like AQ. Or maybe some sort of backdoor flushdraw like A5 of hearts. People often get confused about a pair + draw type of hand and begin to raise it, when they should just call.

Results
Running top two into a set is just a big cooler. There is nothing, you can do to "incorporate" that or avoid going broke. Sets are rare and well disguised hands, which is the whole reason, why setmining can be profitable.

 

[eetenor]

I wanted to get some feedback on this hand. The converter doesn't let me convert it somehow, so I'll try to do it myself.

First hand of an $1.1 MTT, 6-max table, all 60 BBs.

I get dealt A♣K♣ in CO.

Preflop:
Everyone folds to me, I bet 3 BBs, BU calls, BB calls.

*** FLOP *** [A♦ T♦ 6♥] (Pot = 505)
BB checks
Hero bets 1/2 Pot
BU calls
BB calls

*** TURN *** [A♦ T♦ 6♥] [K♥] (Pot = 1261)
BB checks
Hero bets Full Pot
BU shoves
BB folds
Hero Calls

*** RIVER *** [A♦ T♦ 6♥] [K♥] [3♥]

*** SHOW DOWN ***

Spoiler: Results

AndyreasDE: shows [Ac Kc] (two pair, Aces and Kings)

vitality86: shows [6c 6d] (three of a kind, Sixes)

vitality86 collected 6445 from pot

Here's my thinking:
I bet half pot on Flop to make any potential flush draw callers pay a high(er) price. Since I get two callers, I extend the aggression after hitting two pair on board without straight potential since I assume I have the best hand.

I did not properly think before calling the shove since I doubt he shoved for a draw. But I was committed to the pot anyway, after my big bet on the turn.

My questions to you are:

• How to properly incorporate sets into opponents ranges?
• Would you generally fold two top pair opposed to a raise?

Avoided looking at the results-
What does your Villains do with 2 pair on that flop? Raise right? Not always but most often- So when called our V have draws and sometimes sets- one of the draws got there and a back door flush card makes another draw and the hands we are beating are Ax weak and Tx with a gut shot so why are we betting pot? Why try to get folds when our hand improves and AX rvr two pair pays us off and Tx rvr two pair pays us off-We want to get value from a wide range here pot sizing does not do that.
Looking at results now-
Set played exactly as a set plays at this level- This is why we do not pot bet the turn- we pot commit ourselves and our V's actions will be nuts or near nuts a majority of the time-as played vs a pot turn bet. It may not matter at this skill level but our pot sizing also signals we do not have AA or KK

study points that may help you
We want to get very good at board reading and understanding nut advantage and range advantage
AK on AT6 is not the nuts AT A6 TT 66 then AK- all of the nut hands are possible on this flop as played by your V preflop at this skill level

On this board we do have the range advantage vs BU-however when we half pot bet flop on this board 3 way the BU range condenses considerably more than ours -we need to consider that when we choose a turn sizing- not to fear the nuts but to understand what our value targets are-when we make two pair we want to be called wider not tighter- but we have to be aware as well that the nuts on the turn is a straight the second nuts are those pesky sets so we want to choose a value/protection sizing.

When the V shoves on turn we have to pick a hand that is behind AK that did not raise the flop but now when we could have AK KK AT QJ wants to get all-in
We are blocking AT A6 KT K6 We have AX hands in our range why would they shove a turned heart draw on this board after we pot committed ourselves?

It is a very helpful exercise to really drill down on this hand and think deeply about ranges on the turn based on the BU calling a 3 way flop

 

[monkeytilter]

Avoided looking at the results-
What does your Villains do with 2 pair on that flop? Raise right? Not always but most often- So when called our V have draws and sometimes sets- one of the draws got there and a back door flush card makes another draw and the hands we are beating are Ax weak and Tx with a gut shot so why are we betting pot? Why try to get folds when our hand improves and AX rvr two pair pays us off and Tx rvr two pair pays us off-We want to get value from a wide range here pot sizing does not do that.
Looking at results now-
Set played exactly as a set plays at this level- This is why we do not pot bet the turn- we pot commit ourselves and our V's actions will be nuts or near nuts a majority of the time-as played vs a pot turn bet. It may not matter at this skill level but our pot sizing also signals we do not have AA or KK

study points that may help you
We want to get very good at board reading and understanding nut advantage and range advantage
AK on AT6 is not the nuts AT A6 TT 66 then AK- all of the nut hands are possible on this flop as played by your V preflop at this skill level

On this board we do have the range advantage vs BU-however when we half pot bet flop on this board 3 way the BU range condenses considerably more than ours -we need to consider that when we choose a turn sizing- not to fear the nuts but to understand what our value targets are-when we make two pair we want to be called wider not tighter- but we have to be aware as well that the nuts on the turn is a straight the second nuts are those pesky sets so we want to choose a value/protection sizing.

When the V shoves on turn we have to pick a hand that is behind AK that did not raise the flop but now when we could have AK KK AT QJ wants to get all-in
We are blocking AT A6 KT K6 We have AX hands in our range why would they shove a turned heart draw on this board after we pot committed ourselves?

It is a very helpful exercise to really drill down on this hand and think deeply about ranges on the turn based on the BU calling a 3 way flop

Just to point out: Hero has clear nut advantage on the flop - we need to consider range vs range not hand vs range, agreed AK specifically is far from the nuts but Hero's range on the CO includes AA,TT,AT,A6s and 66 and more of the nuttier combos than villains.

 

[monkeytilter]

I think as played and considering this is a $1.10 tourny you have to go broke here with toppest top two. I see worse than sets/straight (did you miss that QJ makes the straight here?? "no straight potential" is incorrect) getting shoved here @$1.10: worse two pairs, Ax getting "scared" that board is getting so wet and lots of overplayed combo draw hands like Q9s.

You may want to look at your bet sizing as others have suggested, as played with these sizes you have no choice other than to call it off and you are forcing your opponents to play too well against you, i.e. they can't continue with junkier holdings vs these big bets!

First off preflop, @60bb you don't have to open for 3x, particularly when you are first in on the CO. Anywhere between 2.2 x and 2.5 is fine in an MTT with no limpers to deal with.

On the flop 1/4 to 1/3 pot would have sufficed, you are in position with the effective nuts and want weaker hands to continue not make good folds.
Similarly blasting pot on the turn is heavy handed, you'll force too many hands you're crushing to fold (we're more than happy for hands like 7h8h to continue here which we're 3:1 favourite against). I think 60% pot would have been better. Even if both villains happened to have each of the flush draws with a gutshot combo and call we are still better than a coin flip against both of them, that's not a terrible spot in a 3 way pot in position!

A smaller pot allows you the possibility of getting away from the hand if you have reads (and I would need a solid read to fold!) that a villain will only come back over the top on the turn only with nutted hands like set+

Something to consider is if you had got to the river and one of the flushes completes how would you react to a lead from one of the villains jamming it in?
You should be considering this eventuality when you bet the turn and have a planned response if the turn or river gets jammed on you, as played you've cut down your options.

Again, I don't think you made any major error here but you can definitely finesse your bet sizing.