$0.25 NL HE MTT: GG Poker BB vs SB

[mariussica88]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Buy-in

0.25

Currency

$

This is a satellite to a $15 tournament. There are 11 tickets to play for, the structure are 3 min levels and we are in level 6.

Not much info on the SB has only 5 hands play: VPIP 80 PFR 40 Limp 50

Do you bet the flop here? What is your action on the river?

GGPoker, Hold'em No Limit - 150/300 (30 ante) - 8 players


UTG: 5,000 (17 bb)
UTG+1: 6,790 (23 bb)
MP: 14,549 (48 bb)
MP+1: 10,811 (36 bb)
CO: 9,733 (32 bb)
BU: 12,197 (41 bb)
SB: 18,085 (60 bb)
BB (Hero): 10,609 (35 bb)

Pre-Flop: (690) Hero is BB with J♥ K♠
6 players fold, SB raises to 1,140, Hero calls 840

Flop: (2,520) 5♦ K♦ 5♠ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets 1,286, SB calls 1,286

Turn: (5,092) 7♦ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: (5,092) 6♠ (2 players)
SB bets 5,092, Hero ?

 

[Andyreas]

Preflop:
SBs opening is quite large with close to 4 BBs but I've seen players opening large from SB, maybe to prevent playing the pot OOP? You have a good hand from quite the top of the blinds, range, so easy call here.

Flop:
You flopped top pair, so I'd also bet here. Chances are decent that he folds if he has no draw or hit at all, so good possibility to take down here.

Turn:
Definitely not a great card since it completes potential flush draws and opens to some straight draws too, so easy check back for pot control

River:
Not a great card again, since is also might complete a straight draw with 98.
Now he bets full pot. Could be a bluff but also a value bet from a hand which beats you:

• Delayed bet for any 5 which gives him trips
• Delayed bet for a flush
• He hit a straight now (also not overly likely imo)

Since there are so many hands that beat you, I would probably lean towards a fold here.

Of course it could also be a well timed bluff for a hand that missed completely and guesses you don't have a straight/flush.

 

[ObbleeXY]

I guess it's how you interpret the data.
You're saying he has a VPIP of 80, whiich means he has voluntarily put into tyhe pot four out of five opportunities.
To me, that screams FISH.

So -- my play is hgoing to be based on that.
A fish of this size, you need ot be careful with because they have no fear (or sense, perhaps).

So -- based on then hands you DID see, what is his range? From what you saw, was he playing particularly wide? the VPIP suggests it, but one can get four good hands off the bat.

Does he play Ace-Rag? I'll always try to understand if a player is premium and PP only or if they will play Any Ace for example.
I tend to play more aggtressively against the any ace folks. This can get me into hot water (e.g. if he was playing A5o/A5s here.

The trouble with this one is the betting is illogical.

SB Raises. BB Calls.
SB Checks. BB Raises. SB Calls.
Check/Check.
SB Raise.

It is a dangerous position.
You've informed the villain that you do not have the flush, but that you might have top pair or top set.
Villain very well could have the set or the flush.
But I'm thinking that doesn't really follow the betting pattern.
Villain opens almost 4BB. That to me is indicative of a pocket pair/made hand or a high premium hand (like AA,KK,QQ, AKo, AKs, AQs)...
but you say that the villain has a VPIP of 80...so it might not need to be so strong a starting hand with a loosey goosey.

In the end, You have Top pair (plus th pair on the board) You are beaten by a lone 5 and diamonds...but also lose to a better kicker...55, 66, 77, JJ -- all of which fit into the 4BB raise pre-flop narrative. I'm not sure the 98 or the 43 are likely hands given the betting pattern...even if suited. So the straight is unlikely UNLESS the player loves those mid range suited connectors and over-values them...but that requires intel.

Given all this -- I'd have to say that a FOLD following the river raise is probably a good play, given that you don't have much intel on the villain.

One of the problems here is that you played this hand passively (with the exception of the post flop bet). You left most of the decision making to the villain...and then were in an uncomfortable spot when they took control.

If he isn't a total liar, I suspec the villain's range then included:
AA,KK,QQ,AKo, AKs, AQs, 55,66,77,JJ

Although I can state that a FOLD is the play on the river....I suspect I would have gone over the top.

What did you do? What was the outcome?

 

[ObbleeXY]

Preflop:
SBs opening is quite large with close to 4 BBs but I've seen players opening large from SB, maybe to prevent playing the pot OOP? You have a good hand from quite the top of the blinds, range, so easy call here.

Flop:
You flopped top pair, so I'd also bet here. Chances are decent that he folds if he has no draw or hit at all, so good possibility to take down here.

Turn:
Definitely not a great card since it completes potential flush draws and opens to some straight draws too, so easy check back for pot control

River:
Not a great card again, since is also might complete a straight draw with 98.
Now he bets full pot. Could be a bluff but also a value bet from a hand which beats you:

• Delayed bet for any 5 which gives him trips
• Delayed bet for a flush
• He hit a straight now (also not overly likely imo)

Since there are so many hands that beat you, I would probably lean towards a fold here.

Of course it could also be a well timed bluff for a hand that missed completely and guesses you don't have a straight/flush.

Good analysis captain.
I don't think the 98 or 43 fit into the narrative. So, like you, I do not think the straight is a likely worry.
Similarly A5, K5, Q5, J5 are just unlikely starting hands for a pre-flop raise of 4BB.
The flush is possible. The straight, less so. The trips/quads are possible...but would take a man of steel to check the turn.
at any rate...we're agreed that the sensible approach would be to find a fold in this position.
(I'm assuming that either he did fold and is now thinking that was too tight...or he didn't fold and is looking for a reason why he lost.)

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
I would certainly not fold here, and against someone, who is shaping up to be a bit of a maniac, a 3-bet would also not be crazy. But overall I lean towards just calling, because a 3-bet would be for almost 1/3 of your chips, and even against a maniac I am not excited about calling off a 4-bet jam with KJ.

Flop
Pretty clear spot to bet for value and protection. You dont have the nuts, but you are ahead of the vast majority of his range, and him checking also weaken his range further. If he had a hand better than KJ, would he really check it and risk giving you a free card? Probably not.

Turn
I am ok checking back here, mostly because another bet would kind of commit you to the pot, and I would like to keep some options open.

River
I agree, that its very unlikely, he has a straight, so this card was a pretty big blank. Even so he is likely not potting it for value with a hand worse than KJ, so its a bluff catching situation. Pot sized bets on the river are often a strong hand, but even so I would lean towards a call against a player with these stats. I think, the only strong hand, that would play like this, is a flush, and its difficult to have a flush. Its very easy on the other side to have something, that missed completely but did not want to give up on the flop. Your hand is also kind of face up after checking back the turn. So personally I call here, and if he shows me Q2 of diamonds, then good for him.

 

[eetenor]

This is a satellite to a $15 tournament. There are 11 tickets to play for, the structure are 3 min levels and we are in level 6.

Not much info on the SB has only 5 hands play: VPIP 80 PFR 40 Limp 50

Do you bet the flop here? What is your action on the river?

GGPoker, Hold'em No Limit - 150/300 (30 ante) - 8 players


UTG: 5,000 (17 bb)
UTG+1: 6,790 (23 bb)
MP: 14,549 (48 bb)
MP+1: 10,811 (36 bb)
CO: 9,733 (32 bb)
BU: 12,197 (41 bb)
SB: 18,085 (60 bb)
BB (Hero): 10,609 (35 bb)

Pre-Flop: (690) Hero is BB with J♥ K♠
6 players fold, SB raises to 1,140, Hero calls 840

Flop: (2,520) 5♦ K♦ 5♠ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets 1,286, SB calls 1,286

Turn: (5,092) 7♦ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: (5,092) 6♠ (2 players)
SB bets 5,092, Hero ?

This is a perfect spot for smaller post flop bet sizing- On the flop when the SB checks they have better hands AK AA KK - 5x flush draws that all can check some to check raise- as well as weaker hands that want to pot control and hands that just missed completely- We do not need to bet half pot vs that type of range if we bet smaller we pot control and get value at the same time-
In order to call we need to know the SB is aggressive- what happened in the 80% of hands they already played- This is where we need to take a note to clarify our HUD stats

 

[mariussica88]

Thank you all for feedback. Here is the full hand:

GGPoker, Hold'em No Limit - 150/300 (30 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 5,000 (17 bb)
UTG+1: 6,790 (23 bb)
MP: 14,549 (48 bb)
MP+1: 10,811 (36 bb)
CO: 9,733 (32 bb)
BU: 12,197 (41 bb)
SB: 18,085 (60 bb)
BB (Hero): 10,609 (35 bb)

Pre-Flop: (690) Hero is BB with J♥ K♠
6 players fold, SB raises to 1,140, Hero calls 840

Flop: (2,520) 5♦ K♦ 5♠ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets 1,286, SB calls 1,286

Turn: (5,092) 7♦ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: (5,092) 6♠ (2 players)
SB bets 5,092, Hero calls 5,092

Total pot: 15,276

Showdown:
SB shows K♣ 5♣ (a full house, Fives full of Kings)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 32%, Flop: 97%, Turn: 99%, River: 100%)

BB (Hero) shows J♥ K♠ (two pair, Kings and Fives)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 68%, Flop: 3%, Turn: 1%, River: 0%)

SB wins 15,276


After this hand I watched him closely and he indeed is a fish/maniac....he got out 5 hands later

 

[spunka]

Yep I agree, with you all, BUT why risk 5k which will put us in the danger zone, we do still have chips to find a better spot, we “only” have top pair, and villan did call our flop bet, we did not bet on turn. which makes us vulnerable for a river bet like this, so in my eyes it is either fold or shove here, calling is not an option, with the stack we have left.

 

[Andyreas]

After this hand I watched him closely and he indeed is a fish/maniac....he got out 5 hands later

Dang, that sucks.

But sometimes the fish get lucky as well. Too bad it was against you though.
😅

 

[fundiver199]

Showdown:
SB shows K♣ 5♣ (a full house, Fives full of Kings)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 32%, Flop: 97%, Turn: 99%, River: 100%)

In my post I did not even mention the flopped full houses, because there are so few combos of them anyway. But actually this is the only type of value hand, where his line makes complete sense. Loose raise preflop, but he is a fish, and it was sooooted, so no surprice there. Then when he flop a boat, of course he slowplay it. On the turn he continue his slowplay, and when you dont take the bait, he bomb the river to make up for lost value. This all makes complete sense.

But lets say he flopped a flushdraw instead. Would he then not have C-bet it? A lot of people would. And if he decided to go for a check-call line, would he not sometimes have led the turn with his flush to prevent you from checking back exactly the kind of hand, you had? A lot of people would. So while not impossible flushes are at least discounted due to his flop and turn line.

What about if he flopped trips? Then he would almost certainly have C-bet the flop to get value from exactly the kind of hand, you had, and to charge you, if you had a flushdraw. This is not a board like KK5 rainbow, where it can make sense to slowplay trips, because its so difficult for the opponent to have anything. And if he did do some weird slowplay with trips, he would likely have led the turn to not allow hands with a single diamond a free chance to draw out on him. So trips are extremely discounted, and there are also not that many hands with a 5 in them, that raise big preflop. K5s is probably about the worst 5, he will ever show up with.

So in reality he might be polarized not to a flush or nothing but more likely to a boat or nothing with a few flushes thrown into the mix. And if that is the case, then calling is certainly not bad. In general when we take this kind of line with bet flop, check back turn, our intention should be to call with our bluff catchers on the river, since we are weakening our range and inducing bluffs. This was a bit different, because he bet full pot, but on the other side KJ is also fairly high in your range if not almost the best hand, you can even have after taking this line.

 

[ObbleeXY]

Similarly A5, K5, Q5, J5 are just unlikely starting hands for a pre-flop raise of 4BB.

Well, I guess I was wrong there.
Fancy that...someone opening K5s at 4BB.
Yep, happpy to sit at the table with your villain. He got lucky whilst playing fishy.\

Still think this would have been a fold hand tho.

 

[mariussica88]

Well, I guess I was wrong there.
Fancy that...someone opening K5s at 4BB.
Yep, happpy to sit at the table with your villain. He got lucky whilst playing fishy.\

Still think this would have been a fold hand tho.

He was knocked out soon after this hand...so I guess he did not make it too far

 

[fundiver199]

He was knocked out soon after this hand...so I guess he did not make it too far

At the end of the day this was just a cooler flop especially blind vs. blind. If the turn had not been a diamond, he would likely have gotten your entire stack