How to gauge the experience at the table.

Polytarp

Polytarp

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Starting with the old "Rounders" cliche..if you can't spot the sucker at the table...guess what?
Does software exist presently that can assess the skill level of the players at the table you are playing at? For example, I've played enough of the CardsChat games to recognize when I'm in a tough game and will need to play correctly but this is only because I have tracked many of these players and have player notes on them as well. Software did exist that searched sites for "soft" games (I've never used it but was aware.) that I think is now prohibited. Perhaps phrased differently, is there a commonly accepted grading system that can tag the quality of the game you are involved in? "Hard and soft" tables is just too vague.:confused:
 
abwil2

abwil2

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Other then notes i dont see how you coulkd gauge experience at the table. Ive played with guys live for years so i know they have experience but still play like noob donkeys. Some people just have that style. Throw chips around and hit that big pot or hit alot of smaller pots. I just take notes as much as possible
 
Tracid

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Personally, I just observe and watch how they play. It usually doesn't take too long to get some kind of idea.

Bet sizing in regards to position, board texture and stack size can give indicators even when the hand doesn't go to showdown.

Of course when it does go to showdown it's a wealth of information.

I don't currently use any software and only intend to get a tracker for analysis and data purposes rather than HUD stats.
 
Rumengh

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Starting with the old "Rounders" cliche .. if you can spot the sucker at the table ... guess what?
Is there software that can assess the skill level of the players at the table you're playing? For example, I've played enough games CardsChat to recognize when I'm in a tough game and you have to play properly, but that's only because I followed a lot of these players and I have notes on players for them. There is software that is looking for sites for "soft" games (I've never used it, but was aware.) That I think are now banned. Maybe it's worded differently, is there an accepted classification system that can mark the quality of the game in which you participate? "Hard and Soft":confused:[/ Quote]
Frankly I think no such thing and you alone can follow the game on your opponents. As the fool in high-priced tournaments are rarely find them on the micro level:aetsch:
 
Polytarp

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Well, I look forward to playing against you online.
Here is a book I read years ago, "The Professor, the Banker, and the Suicide King ."
Second, watch some of "Jungleman's" podcasts where he describes some "surreal" big games.

For some people it's not about the money but about the desire to dominate [power] which means that certain games are populated by excessively large egos that are bankrolled accordingly. Getting back to my original question, how would you quickly assess the experience at a table?
 
theANMATOR

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Wasn't mentioned above so I thought I'd chime in.

Poker databases are an interesting way to manually gauge 'who' you are playing against. I'm not familiar with non-US databases. I have used sharkscope which provides a lot of data in relation to event winning, # of hands played, winning % and other useful info. (mostly for tournament play)

It opened my eyes to the fact, as a micro stakes player, I'm not playing against other 'rookie' players like myself.

Why are 4 players at my table in this freeroll who have participated and cashed in $55 dollar buy-in events within the past 2 months? That's odd!?! Player note updated.
 
B

BART777

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Starting with the old "Rounders" cliche..if you can't spot the sucker at the table...guess what?
Does software exist presently that can assess the skill level of the players at the table you are playing at? For example, I've played enough of the CardsChat games to recognize when I'm in a tough game and will need to play correctly but this is only because I have tracked many of these players and have player notes on them as well. Software did exist that searched sites for "soft" games (I've never used it but was aware.) that I think is now prohibited. Perhaps phrased differently, is there a commonly accepted grading system that can tag the quality of the game you are involved in? "Hard and soft" tables is just too vague.:confused:
it is rather necessary to estimate not experience, but style of play of opponents and dynamics of all table. and most to be "flexible" and ready to change the style. only your actions and actions of your opponents give an assessment. at any assessment, there is no guarantee of 100% that assessment is right. it is poker.
 
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tremor_ß

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Wasn't mentioned above so I thought I'd chime in.

Poker databases are an interesting way to manually gauge 'who' you are playing against. I'm not familiar with non-US databases. I have used SharkScope which provides a lot of data in relation to event winning, # of hands played, winning % and other useful info. (mostly for tournament play)

It opened my eyes to the fact, as a micro stakes player, I'm not playing against other 'rookie' players like myself.

Why are 4 players at my table in this freeroll who have participated and cashed in $55 dollar buy-in events within the past 2 months? That's odd!?! Player note updated.

great, but I wouldn't want to me someone had checked, it's like in a real casino you leaked information! I consider it cheating.
 
theANMATOR

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I don't

great, but I wouldn't want to me someone had checked, it's like in a real casino you leaked information! I consider it cheating.

It is no different than watching a person play and annotating their tendencies, except even less so - it's just reviewing results based on history. Nothing more. That isn't cheating, its information.
 
Dorugremon

Dorugremon

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Starting with the old "Rounders" cliche..if you can't spot the sucker at the table...guess what?

Perhaps phrased differently, is there a commonly accepted grading system that can tag the quality of the game you are involved in? "Hard and soft" tables is just too vague.:confused:
No not really. It's something you need to develop a feel for through experience and observation. There are clues:

*) The Poster: Does he pay full price for partial orbits?

*) The habitual limper: Is he the first player in for just the price of a BB? Does he do this from late positions after everyone has folded to him? It's especially bad if he open limps from the button. Open limping is bad for a number of reasons: you give up all your fold equity, you failed to take the initiative, if you have a limping range, you need to protect it by limping strong hands, and this costs you EV.

*) Bad bet sizing: Do you see min-bets that offer the rest of the table high odds? Shows he doesn't understand odds, and/or bluffs gutlessly. Does he make these tiny bets with strong hands that leave value on the table? Larger than game standard opens? Indicates he's afraid of post-flop play.

*) Plays the same hands the same way regardless of position: doesn't understand the power of position.

*) Short buys: Does he come in for less than a full stack? Especially: does he repeatedly buy in short after losing a short stack? Could indicate he's afraid of losing too much, so what does that say about his confidence? This often costs him more in rebuys than he'd lose coming in for a full stack. (Note: Beware the player who comes in for a short stack, takes a beat and makes a full rebuy, and/or tops off later. This could be a better player assessing the fishiness of the table.)

These are all reliable indicators that your opponent doesn't know what he's doing.
 
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fundiver199

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Does software exist presently that can assess the skill level of the players at the table you are playing at?

Basically this is what, HUDs are for. They dont exactly tell you the skill or experience level of a player, but you can see, if someone is using an overall reasonable strategy, and how much you have played with the person before.
 
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fundiver199

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No not really. It's something you need to develop a feel for through experience and observation. There are clues:

*) The Poster: Does he pay full price for partial orbits?

*) The habitual limper: Is he the first player in for just the price of a BB? Does he do this from late positions after everyone has folded to him? It's especially bad if he open limps from the button. Open limping is bad for a number of reasons: you give up all your fold equity, you failed to take the initiative, if you have a limping range, you need to protect it by limping strong hands, and this costs you EV.

*) Bad bet sizing: Do you see min-bets that offer the rest of the table high odds? Shows he doesn't understand odds, and/or bluffs gutlessly. Does he make these tiny bets with strong hands that leave value on the table? Larger than game standard opens? Indicates he's afraid of post-flop play.

*) Plays the same hands the same way regardless of position: doesn't understand the power of position.

*) Short buys: Does he come in for less than a full stack? Especially: does he repeatedly buy in short after losing a short stack? Could indicate he's afraid of losing too much, so what does that say about his confidence? This often costs him more in rebuys than he'd lose coming in for a full stack. (Note: Beware the player who comes in for a short stack, takes a beat and makes a full rebuy, and/or tops off later. This could be a better player assessing the fishiness of the table.)

These are all reliable indicators that your opponent doesn't know what he's doing.

Excellent observations, would just like to add a few addtional points.

*) The poster: If a known maniac is at the table, it is often worth posting from the CO seat especially at full ring to not miss out on a golden opportunity. Good players will sometimes do that.

*) The limper: I love attacking limpers, but when a TAG or NIT suddenly start to limp, things get a bit weird. Are they doing the limp-trap with aces, or are they trying to setmine cheap? Some caution is required in this situation, and I am not looking to get involved with really marginal hands.


*) Bad bet sizing: Or on the turn they bet 10c into a pot of 1,65$, but suddenly on the river out of the blue they overbet 2,7 times the pot on a blank. Just let them have it and move on.

*) Short buys: A very reliable tell is odd buyin like 6,83$ on a 10NL table, when someone sit down. Pretty much the only reason, someone would buy in for 6,83$, is because, this is their entire remaining balance. They lost the majority of their rool, and now they are looking for a quick bingo style fix.

*) Donk betting: Betting into the previous street aggressor is not always bad, but bad players tend to do it way to often, and in bad situations. If you open UTG, SB call you, flop come AK4 rainbow, then you are the one representing most of the good hands on this board like AA, KK, AK, AQ. So leading into that is just strange and not something, a good player would ever do.
 
theANMATOR

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The Poster?

There are clues:

*) The Poster: Does he pay full price for partial orbits?

*) The habitual limper: Is he the first player in for just the price of a BB? Does he do this from late positions after everyone has folded to him? It's especially bad if he open limps from the button. Open limping is bad for a number of reasons: you give up all your fold equity, you failed to take the initiative, if you have a limping range, you need to protect it by limping strong hands, and this costs you EV.

*) Bad bet sizing: Do you see min-bets that offer the rest of the table high odds? Shows he doesn't understand odds, and/or bluffs gutlessly. Does he make these tiny bets with strong hands that leave value on the table? Larger than game standard opens? Indicates he's afraid of post-flop play.

*) Plays the same hands the same way regardless of position: doesn't understand the power of position.

*) Short buys: Does he come in for less than a full stack? Especially: does he repeatedly buy in short after losing a short stack? Could indicate he's afraid of losing too much, so what does that say about his confidence? This often costs him more in rebuys than he'd lose coming in for a full stack. (Note: Beware the player who comes in for a short stack, takes a beat and makes a full rebuy, and/or tops off later. This could be a better player assessing the fishiness of the table.)

These are all reliable indicators that your opponent doesn't know what he's doing.

*) The Poster:
Could you expand upon this one Dorugremon? I'm not familiar with this?

*) The habitual limper:
Yes - these guys play like 80% of hands and are usually fit or fold on the flop, OR they are the min-betters on every street. If these guys are in front of my - I just totally ignore their bets, they are meaningless - and you can play straight up ABC poker against them.
Pre-flop I will normally 3-4x re-raise their donkey limp and post flop if hitting the board in any way, I will 3-4x re-raise their min-bets. This breaks them of the passive aggressive style quite fast. They either have to commit to the hand or get out.

*) Bad bet sizing:
Yes this is a very good tell imo. Those that shove preflop light hoping a suited Ace or two suited broadways get through. I can understand if short stacked, but at the micros TOO MANY "lags" shove pre in hopes of sucking out or getting it through. I think half the field is quasi delusional thinking they have the best hand, are surprised when they are called and loose, then complain in chat they were sucked out on - "do the math bro". LOL No need - I called your shove with my A/K - you shoved pocket 3s. The entire table had you beat. Poker is a 5 card game, not a 2 card game. Thanks for the double up!
I do however think their is a legitimate discussion about bet sizing and preserving your stack with modest (not min-bet) bets, that exponentially increase on every street. Hitting a set on the flop doesn't automatically mean shove 150bb into the center of the table - maybe 1/3 pot bet, and increase as we evaluate all streets after the flop. Much more equity can be gained from playing a hand out - instead of shoving pre/flop.

I love to see players get a walk when they shove pre - and turn over KK/AA. It's quite fun to needle them - "You sure did get a lot of value from that premium hand" lol
 
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fundiver199

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*) The Poster:
Could you expand upon this one Dorugremon? I'm not familiar with this?

Basically NLH evolve around the blinds. By paying 1,5BB, we get to see an orbit of cards. If you post, then you pay 1BB to see less than an orbit, and that is a bit like paying your taxes twice. Its a losing play, and therefore its a sign of someone, who is impatient and there to have fun rather than win.
 
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tremor_ß

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It is no different than watching a person play and annotating their tendencies, except even less so - it's just reviewing results based on history. Nothing more. That isn't cheating, its information.
maybe so, but definitely in an ordinary casino such information is not found, still eSports "poker" is a separate type of games.
 
Gloria_Legenda

Gloria_Legenda

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By trial and error, it's very simple the more you make mistakes, the more you know
 
Dzob

Dzob

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In my opinion, it's best to watch players and color them. Green - fish, yellow - Loos-agresive, red - tight. If there are at least two greens on the table - then you have to play it.
 
Polytarp

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By trial and error, it's very simple the more you make mistakes, the more you know

You missed the point. You need to minimize mistakes so that you don't erode your bankroll in the search for information. If you can figure out who you are playing against before you play that is worth $$$...either into your bankroll or avoiding losing that amount.

I liked what was brought up in a few posts where some people noticed that players who had cashed in on bigger games were playing these very, very small buy-in games. That's part of what I was asking.:flute:
 
Polytarp

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Basically this is what, HUDs are for. They dont exactly tell you the skill or experience level of a player, but you can see, if someone is using an overall reasonable strategy, and how much you have played with the person before.

Yup. And I've used them but the information can be manipulated. I've played in some games under a different alias loaded with all kinds of bad plays and stats and I played accordingly until some major money was in play. This is sporadic and on different sites but it does pay well and can be interpreted as luck.:flute:
 
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