What are favorable pot odds for calling a flush draw on flop?

smells_flushy

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Simple question. What pot odds justify calling a flush draw on the flop?
 
DaveE

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Anything better than 2 : 1
 
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phatjose

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35% chance to hit your flush in the next 2 cards if you play it out to the river. 2:1 odds gives you the odds to call. However, this is also assuming no other betting on the turn, which may alter the odds. Personally, I look for at least 3:1 to call on the flop (doing the math shows you need 3.22:1 to call for just the flop), since you have 38:9 shot to hit on the turn, and a 37:9 shot to then hit on the river.
 
aliengenius

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Anything better than 2 : 1

Only if you are all in. This is SUCH a common mistake: 2:1 is the odds if you get to see both cards. Clearly if there will be a bet on the turn, you can't use the odds for two cards to come to calculate your draw. You really need to calculate your odds one street at a time. As such, you are a little more than a 4:1 dog.

The real answer to this has to take into account some other factors, including if you might get a free card on the turn if you call, and most importantly, implied odds: how much you can expect to make from your opponent if you hit your flush, which might be 'zero' since the flush will usually be pretty easy to see. Obvioulsy the deeper the stacks, and poorer your opponent, the better. Sammy Farha once said "Why draw if you're not going to get paid off?"
You can see how being in position is a huge advantage here when on the draw, and gives you more options.

Sorry, another "it depends" answer, but hey, it's poker, what did you expect.
 
38special

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really just depends how much money you can squeeze out of the guy if you hit your draw. i like strait draws more than flush draws because they are less noticeable and dont kill your action as much when up against two pairs or sets

implied odds are just as, if not more, important than pot odds. good players will never give you the right pot odds.. they'll will force you to make a stretch call and in the long run they make even more money.
 
DaveE

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What are favorable pot odds for calling a flush draw on flop?
Simple question. What pot odds justify calling a flush draw on the flop?

Please read bold in OP. Simple question = simple answer.

Notice the last 2 words of the title and the first 2 words of the post.
 
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pigpen02

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I think the consensus is that there is not a simple answer for that question.
 
DaveE

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After rereading this thread I have to agree. I stand corrected.:eek:
 
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ginNjuice

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Call with a flush draw? Lead out and bet that hand, or even better RAISE. Put your opponents to the test and force them to make the decisions, not you. Also, if you do get called, you're hand is well disguised when you do hit, getting yourself paid off rather than coming to life when the flush hits making your check/call on the flop even more obvious to give away your hand. With this in mind, I'll check/call the flop in a heads up situation against and opponent I'm sure isn't on the flush draw in hopes that it hits and represent the flush with the standard weak play (imho) of flush draws.
Now I'm not saying that the aggressive play is what should happen on every hand. That's never true in poker. I'm just trying to make the point of just calling when you have draws, proper odds or not, is weak play and not winning poker. To many times I see people calling with draws and it's easy to take advantage of this when draws miss, and get away from people when they've obviously hit their hand. But if you must just call, look for at least 3:1, assuming you'll squeeze a little extra out of your opponents on the remaining streets when it hits.
 
vanquish

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I'm just trying to make the point of just calling when you have draws, proper odds or not, is weak play and not winning poker.

Calling with proper odds on a draw may not be "winning" poker, but it's certainly profitable poker.
 
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ginNjuice

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Calling with proper odds on a draw may not be "winning" poker, but it's certainly profitable poker.
True, but you'd be hard pressed to find anybody that's going to bet 1/3 of the pot to give you the 4:1 you need for your flush draw. I guess it's just part of picking off the weak players at the table but I know I'm never betting that small.
 
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phatjose

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I see people underbetting on a routine basis at some of the places I play. What's funny is when I will (correctly) call with pot odds, hit my flush, and then have them say I "sucked out" on them.
 
Cheetah

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The pot odds are 4:1.

In practice, you can often call with 3:1 because of implied odds. 3:1 corresponds to calling half pot bet.

In position, your implied odds are better so you can call more liberaly.

Re-raising (not all-in) with a draw is very questionable because that kills the odds to draw and the FE gained is probably not enouigh to compensate.

All-in when first to act is fine because of FE as long as your stack is not very big. As already mentioned, when you are all-in your odds are 2:1 if called.
 
pigpen02

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The pot odds are 4:1.

In practice, you can often call with 3:1 because of implied odds. 3:1 corresponds to calling half pot bet.

In position, your implied odds are better so you can call more liberaly.

Re-raising (not all-in) with a draw is very questionable because that kills the odds to draw and the FE gained is probably not enouigh to compensate.

All-in when first to act is fine because of FE as long as your stack is not very big. As already mentioned, when you are all-in your odds are 2:1 if called.

And sometimes there are two people betting to give you the 4:1.
 
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