The Nuts

With a board of JJJKT (as shown in the HH below)is J8 in your hand the absolute nuts?

  • Yes! Why did you waste my time?

    Votes: 25 75.8%
  • No!!! AJ is the absolute nuts!

    Votes: 5 15.2%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 3 9.1%

  • Total voters
    33
jayneseo

jayneseo

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Had some guy argue that this rush guy didn't have the absolute nuts because he didn't have AJ, we told him yes he did because he had the fourth jack so having the fourth jack in his hand made it he absolute nuts in the hand. Just wanted to see some opinions.



Full Tilt Poker Game #2601133538: $26 Token Frenzy (19385853), Table 13 - 30/60 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:01:55 ET - 2007/06/06
Seat 1: udontnojack (2,740)
Seat 2: LokoGall (4,320)
Seat 3: W_W_W_IVEY_D (685)
Seat 4: Wochoppi (1,435)
Seat 5: jayneseo (1,445)
Seat 6: troydog (2,730)
Seat 7: FIRE9000 (2,715)
Seat 8: ELIAB67 (1,025)
Seat 9: RUSH3452 (1,305)
ELIAB67 posts the small blind of 30
RUSH3452 posts the big blind of 60
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jayneseo [3c Qc]
udontnojack folds
LokoGall folds
W_W_W_IVEY_D folds
Wochoppi folds
jayneseo folds
troydog folds
FIRE9000 folds
ELIAB67 calls 30
RUSH3452 checks
*** FLOP *** [Ks Th Jd]
ELIAB67 checks
RUSH3452 checks
*** TURN *** [Ks Th Jd] [Jh]
ELIAB67 bets 120
RUSH3452 raises to 240
ELIAB67 calls 120
*** RIVER *** [Ks Th Jd Jh] [Jc]
ELIAB67 bets 725, and is all in
RUSH3452: hmm..I have the nuts..Illcall
RUSH3452 has 15 seconds left to act
RUSH3452 calls 725
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ELIAB67 shows [Ah 6d] (three of a kind, Jacks)
RUSH3452 shows [Js 8c] (four of a kind, Jacks)
RUSH3452 wins the pot (2,050) with four of a kind, Jacks
ELIAB67 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2,050 | Rake 0
Board: [Ks Th Jd Jh Jc]
Seat 1: udontnojack didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: LokoGall didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: W_W_W_IVEY_D didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: Wochoppi didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: jayneseo didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: troydog didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: FIRE9000 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: ELIAB67 (small blind) showed [Ah 6d] and lost with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 9: RUSH3452 (big blind) showed [Js 8c] and won (2,050) with four of a kind, Jacks
 
stormswa

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ummm

any J is the nuts regardless of what the 5th card is, of course if you are playing 5 cards A would be the extreme nuts but seeing as there are only 4 jacks in deck your kicker card does not matter so this question can not be answered.

so to answer your question add a option "any jack is the nuts" which I guess means J8 is nuts.



crap 999 cant answer anymore posts.
 
Jack Daniels

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any J is the nuts regardless of what the 5th card is, of course if you are playing 5 cards A would be the extreme nuts but seeing as there are only 4 jacks in deck your kicker card does not matter so this question can not be answered.

so to answer your question add a option "any jack is the nuts" which I guess means J8 is nuts.
I had to read this twice times to make sure I understood what you were saying.

And yes, ^^^^ that. :)
 
Emperor IX

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lol. Ridiculous. Even in a community game the only way you can share the same four of a kind is with 4 on the board, and kickers only matter in that situation.
 
hott_estelle

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Oh that board, in the HH, yes the J8 is the absolute nuts.

However, in the question you posed on the poll, about if J8 is the absolute nuts on a JJJXX board, the answer would have to be no, not for every situation.

For example:

If board read J-clubs, J-hearts, J-diamonds, 10-diamonds, and A-diamonds, the J8 would not be the absolute nuts because the KQ-diamonds obv is a royal flush, and obv that has you beat. Any other examples, if there is a straight-flush draw possibility (i.e. JJJXX boards where there is like a 8-9 that share same suit with a J on board, or a 7-8, 10-7, A-K, ect, you get my point) then the J8 is not the absolute nuts.

So, your poll needs to be change for that option as well, because obv, you don't have this up there. But, for the HH you posted, yes the J8 is obv the absolute nuts. But for the poll, the answer is no it is not the absolute nuts for all situations on a JJJXX board.
 
aliengenius

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I voted "I don't know" because I don't know what the "XX" is (as Estelle pointed out).
 
dj11

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It may be post poll fix, but the way I read the poll is;

With a board of JJJXX (as shown in the HH below)is J8 in your hand the absolute nuts?

the info in parenthesis clearly states the conditions.

If this was just fixed a few minutes ago, ignore me, as usual.
 
Jack Daniels

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It may be post poll fix, but the way I read the poll is;

With a board of JJJXX (as shown in the HH below)is J8 in your hand the absolute nuts?

the info in parenthesis clearly states the conditions.

If this was just fixed a few minutes ago, ignore me, as usual.
It was fixed to remove the ambiguity of the question, but not just a few minutes ago. I fixed it right after Estelle's post above almost 10 hours ago.
 
vanquish

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I've always believed "absolute nuts" suggest that your hand has the highest possible value it can have in that situation, which here would be AJ, assuming the XX doesn't complete a straight flush draw. Even though the kicker is not important, it still improves the hand to the best possible 5 card hand.
 
tosborn

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This was taken from an online poker dictionary.

Nuts (or Nut -)
The nuts is the best possible hand. This makes most sense in flop games like hold'em, where the community cards make the nuts pretty much the same for everyone. An exception is when your hole cards make a better hand impossible. If the board is AAK52, the nuts would be AA to an observer, but a player with AK would effectively hold the nuts (assuming the 2 and 5 didn't share a suit with one of the A's).

In hold'em, the nuts is never less than trips. "Nut xxx" is used to refer to the best hand of a particular type, especially a straight or flush. If the table described above had the AK2 of spades, the nut flush would be the queen and any other spade.

So any player holding a Jack in this hand would have the nuts regardless of the kicker.

It has always been my opinion that "nuts" means the best possible hand if the cards were to be turned over right then.
 
vanquish

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This was taken from an online poker dictionary.

Nuts (or Nut -)
The nuts is the best possible hand. This makes most sense in flop games like hold'em, where the community cards make the nuts pretty much the same for everyone. An exception is when your hole cards make a better hand impossible. If the board is AAK52, the nuts would be AA to an observer, but a player with AK would effectively hold the nuts (assuming the 2 and 5 didn't share a suit with one of the A's).

In hold'em, the nuts is never less than trips. "Nut xxx" is used to refer to the best hand of a particular type, especially a straight or flush. If the table described above had the AK2 of spades, the nut flush would be the queen and any other spade.

So any player holding a Jack in this hand would have the nuts regardless of the kicker.

It has always been my opinion that "nuts" means the best possible hand if the cards were to be turned over right then.


This is where the word absolute comes into play IMO. The absolute nuts means it's not only the guaranteed winning hand, it's also the highest value the hand could have with that particular board (even if kicker doesn't play, it is taken into account).
 
jayneseo

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Thanks for fixing it JD!

Like I said this hand caused some interesting debate about the nuts and nuts for the hand blah blah blah, the interesting debate quickly descended into "you are an f'in moron"

I then promptly knocked the guy out that started it with quad sevens. (pp 7s in my hand) To which I asked, "So did I have the nuts there?"
 
crancko

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Oh that board, in the HH, yes the J8 is the absolute nuts.

However, in the question you posed on the poll, about if J8 is the absolute nuts on a JJJXX board, the answer would have to be no, not for every situation.

For example:

If board read J-clubs, J-hearts, J-diamonds, 10-diamonds, and A-diamonds, the J8 would not be the absolute nuts because the KQ-diamonds obv is a royal flush, and obv that has you beat. Any other examples, if there is a straight-flush draw possibility (i.e. JJJXX boards where there is like a 8-9 that share same suit with a J on board, or a 7-8, 10-7, A-K, ect, you get my point) then the J8 is not the absolute nuts.

So, your poll needs to be change for that option as well, because obv, you don't have this up there. But, for the HH you posted, yes the J8 is obv the absolute nuts. But for the poll, the answer is no it is not the absolute nuts for all situations on a JJJXX board.

PHEW, saved by the belle. My thought exactly. Voted and saw the percentage which i voted in was dismally low. Thought i had to shift to checkers...
 
mrsnake3695

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it's pretty simple. Irf you have a jack in your hand with 3 jacks on the board and no strightflush possibilities then you have the best possible hand and therefore the nuts. Best possible hand meaning nobody else could have a hand that could beat you. If you have the case jack nobody else can have a jack therefore nobody can have the AJ which means you have the "nuts" period.
 
aliengenius

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it's pretty simple. Irf you have a jack in your hand with 3 jacks on the board and no strightflush possibilities then you have the best possible hand and therefore the nuts. Best possible hand meaning nobody else could have a hand that could beat you. If you have the case jack nobody else can have a jack therefore nobody can have the AJ which means you have the "nuts" period.

this. It is a but unreal that this is an actual question...
 
alexanderwoo1

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Also the board could come like J of diamonds, J of clubs, J of spades, and the turn and river would be the King of diamonds, and K of hearts he could have KK and could have better hand with quad Kings beating your quad Jacks.
 
R

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Any Jack with Any Kicker is The Nuts as noone else can have a jack so therefore you cant be out kicked. So AJ or J8 are both the nuts but only one of these hands can be at the table in this situation. (this post sounds very confusing but it makes sense to me :) ).
 
alexanderwoo1

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Any Jack with Any Kicker is The Nuts as noone else can have a jack so therefore you cant be out kicked. So AJ or J8 are both the nuts but only one of these hands can be at the table in this situation. (this post sounds very confusing but it makes sense to me :) ).

Yeah, but the board could be J-J-J-K-K and you have A-J you don't have the nuts in this hand. KK is the nuts in this hand.
 
R

RJB07

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yes you are right but i am reffering to the example that is given on this thread. The example you have given you are correct by saying KK is the nuts.
 
mrsnake3695

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Also the board could come like J of diamonds, J of clubs, J of spades, and the turn and river would be the King of diamonds, and K of hearts he could have KK and could have better hand with quad Kings beating your quad Jacks.

If my mother had balls she'd be my father.

This isn't the scenerio, everyone is changing the cards to fit some example that J8 wouldn't be the nuts. The board cards are Ks Th Jd Jh Jc. In this scenerio (the one given) any hand with a jack in it no matter what the other card is the "nuts". This is what the players said and what the argument was about. There aren't three cards to a straight flush and there aren't 2 kings.
 
arkadiy

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If the J K and T are suited, then A Q of that suit would've been the nuts. But in that situation, yes the 4 Js are the nuts :p

And btw, how would JA vs J8 work with 3 Js on the table? :\
 
Kenzie 96

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& if I was the only lad at the table who was packin I would have the absolute nuts, no?
 
jayneseo

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If my mother had balls she'd be my father.

This isn't the scenerio, everyone is changing the cards to fit some example that J8 wouldn't be the nuts. The board cards are Ks Th Jd Jh Jc. In this scenerio (the one given) any hand with a jack in it no matter what the other card is the "nuts". This is what the players said and what the argument was about. There aren't three cards to a straight flush and there aren't 2 kings.

Exactly, also even if I didn't post that hand I always thought if you wrote a hand such as JJJxx the x's always signaled a blank card that didn't matter to the hand. Thats why I orginally didn't specify in my poll.
 
Jack Daniels

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Not exactly on topic, but sort of....

I was just watching one of the National Heads Up Championship matches...

Player 1 held 99. Player 2 held A2. Final board was 66662. Player 2 wins with the absolute nuts...Quad sixes with an Ace kicker. Player one actually thought they split the pot until player 2 and the dealer pointed out the kicker, which, in this case, definitely mattered.

Like I said, sort of on topic.
 
hott_estelle

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Not exactly on topic, but sort of....

I was just watching one of the National Heads Up Championship matches...

Player 1 held 99. Player 2 held A2. Final board was 66662. Player 2 wins with the absolute nuts...Quad sixes with an Ace kicker. Player one actually thought they split the pot until player 2 and the dealer pointed out the kicker, which, in this case, definitely mattered.

Like I said, sort of on topic.

Kristy Gazes v. Chad Brown.

What actually happened was, after the turn card was the 4th six, Kristy checked, and Chad bet out. Kristy called--her brain froze for this hand thinking kicker didn't matter because 4 sixes were out on board (no idea how she could think this, maybe just the pressure got to her).

Anyways, on river Kristy checked again, and this is the mind blowing part, Chad CHECKED??!!? His brain froze, he said after the hand he assumed that Kristy had an Ace as well after she called the turn so he didn't want to bother with putting more chips in the pot when they both were obv going to split. Laziness hurt him from gaining more chips there I guess. With the absolute nuts, on the final card, when your opponent has checked to you and you're the last to act, YOU HAVE TO BET OUT. Amazing how the this hand turned out.

But OMG, how can two of the more well known pros misread a situation that badly. When I saw this for the first time I was completely baffled by both of their explanations to why they played that way.

Crazy part is, if Brown pushes all-in on the river, Kristy probably calls thinking kicker doesn't matter.
 
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