Hello, friends!
I would like to hear your opinion on this issue.

Playing at Pokerstars, I have often observed in MTT that players who have a stack of less than 15 BB, and go to All-in with a strong starting hand on the preflop, often lose. And they lose exactly when a card comes to the river, which could appear there with a minimum degree of probability.
The screenshot shows exactly one of these situations.

Sometimes it seems to me that this client program is playing against you. And there are a lot of such observations.

Do you think this really happens in this client program and does it happen often in other online rooms?

Its just human psycology, that we tend to note it more, when something unusual happens. "Dog bites man" is not nearly as good a story for news media as "Man bites dog". And of course we especially note it, if we are the guy with KK in that hand. The reason is, we are kind of counting the chips already. Especially on the turn where we are like "yes just need to dodge one more bullet, pleeeeese put out the deuce of spades". But then BOOM comes the 2-outer, and we are out of the tournament or left with a crippled stack

agree with reply above)
nice house btw

The issue is not to go all in. And it is over. If it is played more calmly, these observations would be unnecessary. Oh well. Everyone knows what he does. Greetings

survivorship bias from one end, and i'm sure the same feeling happens on the receiving end, that they get rivered all the time. But in reality, it's probably just variance, play enough, anything can happen

Fully agree on first reply - it is more imagination than real. Take notes in a long run and you will see.

Once again, I emphasize that we are talking about Pokerstars, specifically MTT. Players who have a stack of less than 15 BB, with a strong starting hand on the preflop, often lose.

This is exactly my observation for a fairly long period of time. And it is better not to leave comments like "guy, it's a poker...".
I appeal to the players who are attentive to such situations.

Originally Posted by ASHUKPOK

Once again, I emphasize that we are talking about Pokerstars, specifically MTT. Players who have a stack of less than 15 BB, with a strong starting hand on the preflop, often lose.

I have played tousinds of MTTs on Pokerstars including MTT SnGs (45-180 man). I have not noticed anything abnormal at all.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

I have played tousinds of MTTs on Pokerstars including MTT SnGs (45-180 man). I have not noticed anything abnormal at all.

Thanks for the reply. If you are currently playing on Pokerstars, try to take a closer look.

Originally Posted by ASHUKPOK

Thanks for the reply. If you are currently playing on Pokerstars, try to take a closer look.

I agree with you totally, PS uses algorithms to increase deposits and ensure cash flow, the response from some players is always pro Poker Stars and never admit the possibility of PS fudging the results to their desired end...as for the previous comments of not seeing anything abnormal I guess you would have to define 'abnormal;'

This card on the river usually knocks me out of the tournament, I lose 90% of the hands on it.

[QUOTE=CDNMAN 42;5997677]I agree with you totally, PS uses algorithms to increase deposits and ensure cash flow, the response from some players is always pro Poker Stars and never admit the possibility of PS fudging the results to their desired end...


I wonder how it is now in other poker rooms?
I used to play on 888 and on Party Poker. I haven't noticed anything like that. But that was about eight years ago....

Originally Posted by fundiver199

Its just human psycology, that we tend to note it more, when something unusual happens. "Dog bites man" is not nearly as good a story for news media as "Man bites dog". And of course we especially note it, if we are the guy with KK in that hand. The reason is, we are kind of counting the chips already. Especially on the turn where we are like "yes just need to dodge one more bullet, pleeeeese put out the deuce of spades". But then BOOM comes the 2-outer, and we are out of the tournament or left with a crippled stack

yes it is always like hold hold hold but boom this leaves us dazzled lol

Originally Posted by ASHUKPOK

Hello, friends!
I would like to hear your opinion on this issue.

Playing at Pokerstars, I have often observed in MTT that players who have a stack of less than 15 BB, and go to All-in with a strong starting hand on the preflop, often lose. And they lose exactly when a card comes to the river, which could appear there with a minimum degree of probability.
The screenshot shows exactly one of these situations.

Sometimes it seems to me that this client program is playing against you. And there are a lot of such observations.

Do you think this really happens in this client program and does it happen often in other online rooms?

Possibly! I've seen another big company talking openly that changes its algorithm several times a day. I don't know if you've seen it, this video is already older and shows how does PokerStars shuffle the deck. Detail, the video received many negative comments and have been disabled.

You Tube

Originally Posted by acidburnfx

Possibly! I've seen another big company talking openly that changes its algorithm several times a day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DkHzOUzDjc

Thanks!
I didn't see this video. But it is quite clear about the random selection of cards, confirming that "everything is clear". In fact, my observations show otherwise, so I decided to touch on the topic on the forum.

I will try to play dynamically at the table "on one note". Let's see if this will affect the situation.

I publish another screen from today's game. My odds in this hand were 49 to 51, almost equal.
I must say, I was lucky in this hand.

Well, I would hardly put this down to PokerStars alone.

For heaven's sake, Jamie Staples and now others even call that specific river card (ace) Barry Greenstein. If it did not happen with some regularity there would be point in the nickname would there?

Kind of a strange question. We do not really know.
Unless someone has access to the shuffle and deal algorithms. Anything they say is purely speculative and based on our own perception rather than empirical fact.

I too have seen far too many weird hands to believe the Stars is random. But then again, things are different when you play online compared to live. If you are shuffling manually, there is a big difference in methods in determining outcome of the shuffle. But with live games, you can go through volume very quickly. So the brain is comparing apples and oranges here.

I am less suspicious about what the actual cards are than how they're be selected.

Although I constantly say...its just variance ... those are simply odds...etc...I do have my doubts about PokerStars too. I do not believe the cards are shuffled and dealt randomly either.

My suspicion is that the hole cards are "known" by the algorithm which deals flop, turn and river and cards seem to be selected to promote action.

When I fold, for instance, and view my cards, it doesn't seem to matter what my cards were...I almost ALWAYS would have hit *something*...and my straight and flush draws appear with ridiculous frequency...certainly far more than when I play live.

But at the end of the day, we do not have access to the algorithms. This is where the problem lies. It is difficult to trust a black box.

Cheers,
ObbleeXY

It happens in all rooms. I also sometimes have doubts because that situation is repeated a lot and always on the same street, on the river, it gives me the feeling that it may be about a programming code at a logarithm, but anyway I keep playing without losing the illusion, the luck, the variance, the codes are there and they are for everyone to the same extent ja

Hello
It is difficult to argue about card manipulation, why such a big company needs this crap, they are already making a lot of money. won himself in a seemingly hopeless hand, but judge for yourself
Flop
8,5,2-rainbow
The villain has 8 8 and he goes all-in
I have 5 2 and I call
What are my chances? I don’t remember what percentage they offered me, but I continued the distribution, the villain did not take the grand either, the result;
Turn 2
River 2
And I often watched such hands and I myself lost more than once, maybe this is only at my tables, but I write what is happening to me
Best regards, Sergei

The cards flop out the same for everyone,,,,can't get any more fair than that!

So, my question is: Why would PokerStars, or any site, for that matter gain by fixing hands?

They don't know you, and they don't know any of the other players.

I've had many hands go against me, like that, but I've also had many go in my favour.

Why is it, that only the hands people lose, get commented on. Let's face it, for every loser, there's a winner.

I'm sure that the winner of that particular hand, didn't post any messages saying how things go in their favour.

Me too, at first I made some erroneous observation of that kind that led me to wrong assumptions, for instance, what would PS or any other poker room gain if a player busts out? nobody is betting on A player to win or B player to lose. There is absolutly no reason to think that the client is against you, if you do, you will start losing big time and the best solution would be to quit online poker and start playing live, oh wait, you will also blame the deck, the dealer, edge sorting etc... play your game and avoid the unnecessary allins. BTW KK allin with 15BB is GTO, 66 PFR/Call shove in LJ is questionable, especially while commiting 1/3 of your stack there while you have 66.
Myself wouldnt call unless +(99/A5s/ATo/KJo/K9s/QJo/QTs/JTs)

Originally Posted by ASHUKPOK

Thanks!
I didn't see this video. But it is quite clear about the random selection of cards, confirming that "everything is clear". In fact, my observations show otherwise, so I decided to touch on the topic on the forum.

I will try to play dynamically at the table "on one note". Let's see if this will affect the situation.

I publish another screen from today's game. My odds in this hand were 49 to 51, almost equal.
I must say, I was lucky in this hand.

And what were u thinking? PFR 55 UTG is suicide, K9s shove while short UTG1 is completly GTO

Originally Posted by DS3

Well, I would hardly put this down to PokerStars alone.

For heaven's sake, Jamie Staples and now others even call that specific river card (ace) Barry Greenstein. If it did not happen with some regularity there would be point in the nickname would there?

Yes, I should probably read the book "Ace on the River". I am sure that I will find a lot of interesting things in it.

When I fold, for instance, and view my cards, it doesn't seem to matter what my cards were...I almost ALWAYS would have hit *something*...and my straight and flush draws appear with ridiculous frequency...certainly far more than when I play live.

But at the end of the day, we do not have access to the algorithms. This is where the problem lies. It is difficult to trust a black box.

Yes, this happens very often.
You discard a losing hand, and you get the strongest hand on the board.
This is normal, and not so much worrying.
But when, with an enviable consistency, you are knocked out with a small stack.... At the same time, you have a strong starting hand, and the opponent with a large stack on his hand is "garbage". And he wins on the river...
It makes you think!

Originally Posted by ObbleeXY

Kind of a strange question. We do not really know.
Unless someone has access to the shuffle and deal algorithms. Anything they say is purely speculative and based on our own perception rather than empirical fact.

I too have seen far too many weird hands to believe the Stars is random. But then again, things are different when you play online compared to live. If you are shuffling manually, there is a big difference in methods in determining outcome of the shuffle. But with live games, you can go through volume very quickly. So the brain is comparing apples and oranges here.

I am less suspicious about what the actual cards are than how they're be selected.

Although I constantly say...its just variance ... those are simply odds...etc...I do have my doubts about PokerStars too. I do not believe the cards are shuffled and dealt randomly either.

My suspicion is that the hole cards are "known" by the algorithm which deals flop, turn and river and cards seem to be selected to promote action.

When I fold, for instance, and view my cards, it doesn't seem to matter what my cards were...I almost ALWAYS would have hit *something*...and my straight and flush draws appear with ridiculous frequency...certainly far more than when I play live.

But at the end of the day, we do not have access to the algorithms. This is where the problem lies. It is difficult to trust a black box.

Cheers,
ObbleeXY

I answered you in the chat, but somehow "crooked", sorry.

Originally Posted by el79

It happens in all rooms. I also sometimes have doubts because that situation is repeated a lot and always on the same street, on the river, it gives me the feeling that it may be about a programming code at a logarithm, but anyway I keep playing without losing the illusion, the luck, the variance, the codes are there and they are for everyone to the same extent ja

Yes, it is probably necessary to take this into account in the tactics of the game.

Originally Posted by Sergei 9417

Hello
It is difficult to argue about card manipulation, why such a big company needs this crap, they are already making a lot of money. won himself in a seemingly hopeless hand, but judge for yourself
Flop
8,5,2-rainbow
The villain has 8 8 and he goes all-in
I have 5 2 and I call
What are my chances? I don’t remember what percentage they offered me, but I continued the distribution, the villain did not take the grand either, the result;
Turn 2
River 2
And I often watched such hands and I myself lost more than once, maybe this is only at my tables, but I write what is happening to me
Best regards, Sergei

Calling with two pairs on the flop is actually a very big chance to take a big pot.
But would you agree, if it wasn't 2 or 5 on the turn? And the opponent went to All-in - would you support him?

You guys saying how this is only at pokerstars and whatever else. Yet if you think its rigged you continue to play on the site. It is not rigged if you have ever played live you would realize that it is the same amount of crazy stuff that happens on the river. You guys talk about MTT's on stars with a couple thousand people in a lot of there tourneys. You go to a different site with less people and you won't notice this as much as the less players the less variance. Yall think it is rigged after seeing them being audited. If it they were stupid enough to rig it, it would be shut down. Back to my other point you guys think it is rigged yet continue to play on the site or sites.

No. I would be very surprised is the client rigs the games in this way, as it would be detectable with a large hand sample, and it does not really benefit the poker client in any way other than to jeopardise it's image of legitimacy. This is just caused by you either witnessing an unusual sample due to variation or cognitive bias to remember these hands, but not the hands that go as expected.

I completely agree with the observations of the author of this topic. In my game, this happens repeatedly, fantastic combinations come out not in my favor. The random number generator is a program that none of us has access to. There is no way to check how this generator is configured. All that remains is to often be indignant after such departures from the game and rely that equal conditions will be applied to all PokerStars participants.
Yes, I continue to play poker, despite the unpleasant twists and turns in the game. I love poker and after a fleeting rage, I return to the game as soon as I calm down.

Originally Posted by franken222

So, my question is: Why would PokerStars, or any site, for that matter gain by fixing hands?

They don't know you, and they don't know any of the other players.

I've had many hands go against me, like that, but I've also had many go in my favour.

Why is it, that only the hands people lose, get commented on. Let's face it, for every loser, there's a winner.

I'm sure that the winner of that particular hand, didn't post any messages saying how things go in their favour.

So, my answer is this: because it is profitable for the room to replenish the player's deposit when the bankroll is lost, and continue to play in the excitement. After all, the principles of the casino have not been canceled.

But by analyzing your behavior at the table, they can figure out whether you are prone to gambling.

I'm not saying that the room is set against me. I assumed that the program is set up against players with a small stack, giving an advantage to the large stack in the final stages of MTT.

The winner of this particular hand was me, but won on the last card on the turn against the stronger hand.

My friend, I'm not complaining, I'm trying to analyze

Originally Posted by primetime0202

You guys saying how this is only at pokerstars and whatever else. Yet if you think its rigged you continue to play on the site. It is not rigged if you have ever played live you would realize that it is the same amount of crazy stuff that happens on the river. You guys talk about MTT's on stars with a couple thousand people in a lot of there tourneys. You go to a different site with less people and you won't notice this as much as the less players the less variance. Yall think it is rigged after seeing them being audited. If it they were stupid enough to rig it, it would be shut down. Back to my other point you guys think it is rigged yet continue to play on the site or sites.

My friend, that's why I decided to discuss this topic - to understand, maybe I'm playing in this room for nothing and it's time to return to PartyPoker, for example...

Originally Posted by ASHUKPOK

So, my answer is this: because it is profitable for the room to replenish the player's deposit when the bankroll is lost, and continue to play in the excitement. After all, the principles of the casino have not been canceled.

But by analyzing your behavior at the table, they can figure out whether you are prone to gambling.

I'm not saying that the room is set against me. I assumed that the program is set up against players with a small stack, giving an advantage to the large stack in the final stages of MTT.

The winner of this particular hand was me, but won on the last card on the turn against the stronger hand.

My friend, I'm not complaining, I'm trying to analyze

Point well taken.

Here is another hand, the last card of which helped me to double up in a hopeless situation. After the turn, my chances were 9%

Hello everyone.

Yesterday, at the tournament at my table, I took four photos of the hands where the last card was the winning one.

And only in one case out of four did the player with the smaller stack has won.

Two more scrins

Hello.
Today at the tournament, SnG 45 observed the situation with the map on the river four times.
The player with the smallest stack won 2 times, and the player with the largest stack won 2 times. I post screenshots. We save up the statistics further.

I lost twice today in the river. In the first hand I had two pairs and he made a set. In the second hand I had a high pair of aces and he had nothing, but made a runner runner to a straight. It just happens in poker all the time...

Many people arent honest with their own ability level. Most are here because they enjoy the game, not because they can beat it. Its a tough game to beat, most will never win long run. Its ok to not win but dont be unrealistic with why we lose. Its not rigged, its just very tough.

Originally Posted by illphillllllll

Many people arent honest with their own ability level. Most are here because they enjoy the game, not because they can beat it. Its a tough game to beat, most will never win long run. Its ok to not win but dont be unrealistic with why we lose. Its not rigged, its just very tough.

Hi.
This topic is not about skill level and winning. I focused on the winnings of players of a larger stack in the later stages of MTT in the Pokerstars client.
Here are some recent examples with my participation.

Originally Posted by ASHUKPOK

Hi.
This topic is not about skill level and winning. I focused on the winnings of players of a larger stack in the later stages of MTT in the Pokerstars client.
Here are some recent examples with my participation.

Im basically saying your not as good as you think, your not losing because your unlucky. If you would like to get better there are many resources here. If you wanna keep posting conspiracy theories and completely ignore the experienced players its your free will. Good luck beating the system you figured out but cant figure out?

Nice hand ☺️ only this will be at the end if river. Poker like life CHanGeble

This happens alll the time , the killer river.
I have been distrort when it happens.

However, i have lost with AA and Won with 5 9. The wins you forget.

The longer you play this game, the less the bad beats will affect you. Nowadays, when it happens (and it literally still happens to me every day) I just shrug, sometimes I chuckle, sometimes I don't, but realizing there's nothing to be gained from an emotional reaction or response, I simply move on to the next tournament or the next task in my day. I'm not a robot, I might run the hand thru my head a couple of times, but its not for sympathy or pity, its purely to understand if I might have had other options and other ways to approach the hand for the next time such a spot comes up. But usually such beats are pure throwaways, there's nothing to be learned and I quickly forget it and move on.

I struggled with tilt for many years... what solved it was using the play chips on Poker Stars. You might think play chip poker is stress-free and even silly poker... but it isn't. I approached my play chip balance in the same way I'd care for a real-money balance... I tried to grind it up from zero to billions without ever purchasing any chips, and after 4 or 5 years I've achieved that goal and learned so much in the process. The main thing I claim from my time on the play chip side of Stars is that they taught me how to conquer my tilt issues and stop getting emotional when lose to a cooler or a bad beat. It's precisely because the play chips have no real value, that allowed me to understand how silly it is to get upset when you lose at a game using play chips... and over the years that attitude has easily translated over to my real-money play on other sites... and I see the improvement in my game and my results from it. I will always be thankful to Poker Stars, they have always been by far my favorite site, and in my opinion, they have always been the best site by far. I learned the biggest and best lesson I could ever learn in poker at Stars.

On ACR, I've noticed during all in showdowns, the river card often takes a while to come. Very strange.

Originally Posted by illphillllllll

Im basically saying your not as good as you think, your not losing because your unlucky. If you would like to get better there are many resources here. If you wanna keep posting conspiracy theories and completely ignore the experienced players its your free will. Good luck beating the system you figured out but cant figure out?

A strange man...
I do not discuss in this topic who is good, who is bad. I just want to understand whether all rooms have this feature, or only on PStars.

Originally Posted by blueskies

On ACR, I've noticed during all in showdowns, the river card often takes a while to come. Very strange.

Yes, it's the same on PStars. In a preflop showdown, the flop and turn follow each other. And the last map of the river is delayed. It seems that the program calculates by some criteria who to leave at the table.

Originally Posted by DaaBee

However, i have lost with AA and Won with 5 9. The wins you forget.

I never go into the game with 5 9. But sometimes 22 against AA is lucky.

But in this topic I do not discuss who is lucky with what starting hands. Here is a little about something else....

Originally Posted by Alizona

The longer you play this game, the less the bad beats will affect you. Nowadays, when it happens (and it literally still happens to me every day) I just shrug, sometimes I chuckle, sometimes I don't, but realizing there's nothing to be gained from an emotional reaction or response, I simply move on to the next tournament or the next task in my day. I'm not a robot, I might run the hand thru my head a couple of times, but its not for sympathy or pity, its purely to understand if I might have had other options and other ways to approach the hand for the next time such a spot comes up. But usually such beats are pure throwaways, there's nothing to be learned and I quickly forget it and move on.

A perfectly correct remark. This is how you should treat these things. But, you must agree, understanding the circumstances of the distribution of cards on the river can significantly help you to come to victory, carefully playing strong hands in the late stages of MTT.