Intertops: The Action Flop Theory

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Selkiii

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So my title kind of says it all. I'm playing on intertops currently and over the course of the last 45 days, basically since I started playing regularly on there, I've noticed a serious of patterns, especially at the Low to Mid Level Cash games ($0.10/0.20, $0.25/0.50). I've noticed the heaviest action in these stakes for some reason. I can pull up tons of hands that are extremely suspicious.

What do you guys think about "The Action Flop Theory". Action flops hit, 2 or more players hit and get all-in, generating a higher rake for the house and also balancing out the level of play to ensure players keep playing. And another thought of mine is this; The house is somehow able to keep moving around funds through all of the players accounts and in return, keeping all money in play for the rake to eat up, to keep players from withdrawing and then forcing more deposits from the low level players. I'm sure some of you will call me crazy, but I really feel like this is possible, especially with new technology. Sites pulled stuff 10 years ago with less so why can't they pull it off now with better programming and software?

Give me your thoughts on this topic please.
 
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donkcentralFF

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Ive always been inclined to this belief.
 
Raccoony

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Not only that,but Intertops Poker forces players to rake half of their freeroll winnings,so I really don't understand why people keep playing there.
 
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Selkiii

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Yeah, I'm regretting playing on the site now. I don't even want to play poker on the site anymore. The poker software is terrible. Last night I'm playing $0.10/$0.20 6-Max with a $10.00 buy-in and the following action hands occur...

I have A-K suited of diamond in late position, I open to $0.35, folds to SB, he 3Bets to $1.50, I call and the Flop comes As-5d-3d, He checks, I bet $2.25, He shoves in having me covered. I call obviously with Top-Top and Nut Flush Draw. He rolls over 5-3 off and I brick the turn and river shipping my first buy in over to him. Talk about a flop set up for action...

I Rebuy for $10.00 more...

Very Next I get A-Q off on the Button, one limper (UTG) and I raise to $0.55, SB calls and limper 3 Bets to $1.30. I elect to just call and SB folds. Heads up versus the UTG limper...Flop comes Q-9-5, two hearts. I have the Ace of hearts. Again, I have Top-Top, He leads for just $1.10 into a pot of like $3.40. I raise to about Pot, $4.50. He ships All-In. I call really thinking he is on a draw. He rolls over 9-5 off!!! Two pair...I get super lucky and peel off an Ace on the turn and Surprise! I win and double up now with almost $21.00 in play. I'm even...But look at both of these hands...A limper 3 Bets with total rags in two straight hands and both flop two pair in both against me having top pair. I lose one and win one....

Now I'm like, this is pretty crazy...Not to mention some hands played previously that I didn't see a flop in that were full of action, just like these two hands I was involved in. I've only been at the table for like 2 Rounds of action at this point. I fold a few hands and the next hand comes up on my 3rd round of play on the button...

On the button with all action folded to me, I open the pot to $0.45 with K9 of clubs. The SB and BB both call.
*Can you guess what the flop brings???
Flop comes...K-9-3 rainbow. SB shoves All-In for $20.50 into a $1.35 pot. BB folds and at this point, I'm like I have Top-Two and a super dry board. He must have Aces...Only hand he could do that with. If he had KK he's going to check and attempt to induce a bet from me. I know he has AA at this point. No other hand he does this with. So, I know hwhat he has and I'm seriously contemplating a fold because I know some dumb sh*t is about to happen. But I tell myself, if I fold a hand that I know is good, I'm playing scared and bad and not how the game should be played...I talk myself into the call and LITERALLY thinking, what is this rigged software going to do!

So board of K-9-3 rainbow, he shoves, I call with K9. He rolls over AA. My read was 1000% correct. Turn is 2, River...A f**cking Aces! Are you kidding me? Really? C'mon man...

I reload $10.00 more...

3rd hand after Reload...(There is a guy sitting out)

I've got A-8 off Diamonds in the BB. Button raises to $0.40, SB calls and I call. Pot $1.20. Flop comes AcKd2d. I again have Top pair, Nut Flush Draw. SB bets pot for $1.20, I raise $2.60, Button calls, SB goes All-In for just over $5.00. Now Im trapped. Again, I could fold, but seriously, another set up hand?? I call the SB All-In, THEN the Button raises In and has me covered. Really? I have half my chips in the middle with Top Pair Nut Draw...Okay, whatever, I need to get lucky I guess...I call. 3-Way All-In pot. SB has K2 for middle and bottom pairs, Button has KK for a set. Turn comes a 3d, I improve to Nut Flush...I finally got lucky, RIGHT? No...Turn comes another 2 giving them both a boat but KK takes the whole pot. Unreal Huh?

This is not just poker...This is SETUP Poker...To generate more rake. I'm not going to buy the argument of "You play more hands online so you see these type hands more." This blatant and obvious Action Flop setup type hands. Over and over and over I'm seeing it happen, even just watching games that I'm not in, I see it happening, especially more on this site. (Intertops)

I'm seriously done with this site. I think they are one of the worse out there at this point. It's not me playing bad or being a sore loser or anything of the such. I've been playing a long time. Played on FTP and Stars in the glory days and made a living doing in. I'm in the US so I can't play there at the moment. I play live all the time and show very good profits. I track all of my buy-ins, wins and losses along with associated expenses to poker. So Im not just crazy. This site along with what seems to be others have software in place to prevent the solid winning players from stacking up balance so that they can't cashout and in return have tons of minus players depositing funds daily. All they are doing is moving around funds from account to account by setting up hands. I'm not a software engineer or anything like that, but I know the technology is out there and I know its being done...

It needs to be proven somehow though.
 
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donkcentralFF

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LOL this site will never get my money again.. feel like im playing bots lose every hand.. Flop full house guy bets i reraise he calls auto turns a bigger full house.. Such a joke
 
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RobengoSini

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@selkiii
why do u even play on such a dead site like intertops?
play on acr,its clearly the best choice for players resident in the us!:)
 
TiReX

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ahah.This is the ..... poker room in which I played))))I'm not a cash player,I play only MTT's.But since this is not a normal poker tournaments,I:D played at cash tables.In one word-it's a circus)))))
 
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skaterick

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I expect players at every site feel the same way : that the programs are somehow set to generate rake in the cash ring games . Every bad beat and ' cold deck ' reinforces this belief - it's called confirmation bias . Proving or disproving the theory would be almost impossible .
 
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Kevin Watts

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Not only that,but Intertops Poker forces players to rake half of their freeroll winnings,so I really don't understand why people keep playing there.

Plus, they have a high withdraw fee, usually $50. Gave up on them.
 
masonman88

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well I have watched the sunday millions for hours on hours in the past and I don't see these types of hands as often! I am not saying on-line poker is rigged or set to make action flops but I some times wonder with some of the plays I see in SnG's and low enter level turny's that maybe there are robots playing these cards. when I ask them about things in the chat they very seldom respond making it seem more like they are "bots"
 
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Prolaznik

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An interesting theory, though not very convincing...
Point is - rake is capped. So huge, dramatic pots are bad for house. House prefers small, fast pots.

(Preflop raise, one caller. Immediate postflop bet, immediate fold. New hand begins... That's a perfect scenario for every house. Money per hour matters, not money per hand.)
 
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davem86

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what are the payouts like there?
fast/slow times?
 
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acemenow

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Interesting theory - personally I do not like much about this site. I only joined to take part in the freerolls hosted by CC and then joined a couple of their own fr's.

But what really made me question the site is they simply closed my account after they thought I had 30 days of inactivity. Then they send this idiotic emails titled "Is it something we said" why haven't you played yet? Respond to the email and they are using a blast service with a return address that doesn't exist (standard practice in blast emails) but I find the email marketing they are using to be childish at best.

When I play there I just push until I lose and move on. Were it not for CC I would close my account with them. Though they keep telling us through their adverts they are the best site out there ~ LOL
 
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Selkiii

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@RobengoSini

I wouldn't have registered to play on Intertops had I known how bad it really is. I won some freeroll money in the first days of playing there and started slowly building it up. But then I noticed all the hands and setups. Some I was involved in and some I just witnessed at the tables. Its really terrible and degrading for the game of poker. No wonder online poker is having such a hard time getting fully regulated.

I was going to play on ACR but when I signed up with my "Selkii" username, they blocked me. I emailed them and asked why, they said I had previously signed up at some point with another screen name and that i had to use that one. I don't even remember it and they wouldn't cancel it and allow me to use the name I play with so I passed on them. Their CSR really pissed me off.
 
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Selkiii

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Even on sites like Carbon I still see A LOT! Tons of AA vs KK, KK vs QQ, AA vs AK nut flush draws on the flop and both players get it all in, ect ect...Even AA vs KK vs QQ vs 10-10 type hands, routinely. odds wise it doesn't add up regardless of how many hands are being played. And there are programmers from sites that no longer have contracts for said sites that have stated that they hands were programmed to generate these type of setups about 40-50% of the time at random.
 
shinedown.45

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well I have watched the sunday millions for hours on hours in the past and I don't see these types of hands as often! I am not saying on-line poker is rigged or set to make action flops but I some times wonder with some of the plays I see in SnG's and low enter level turny's that maybe there are robots playing these cards. when I ask them about things in the chat they very seldom respond making it seem more like they are "bots"
I don't think there are bots on PS, just players who couldn't be bothered to speak English because they don't have a command of the English language.
At one time I use to think there may be bots, but PS use to have a system to detect bots, on occasion in the past, I must have been reported for being a bot because I wouldn't communicate with the table, I would always bet the same amount regardless the strength and had been a calling station, pretty passive really, not now, but to continue, on a couple of occasions I was prompted to type what was in the chat window, some random phrase.
I think that was the way PS use to check for bots.
 
Sevendeuceoff72

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It's all online poker. If you think these computer programs are not sophisticated enough to do this then you are fooling yourself. They know how you play each hand type and know how to get the money in the middle. Don't worry about this site vs. that site, it's all the same. ACR is the same bullshit. I've been playing the freerolls there pretty regulary and the hands on that are amazing...I also play a lot of Omaha cash games on there...one outers on the reg.
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

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Blame the site because you know that everyone who calls your preflop raise know how to play poker, they all know the maths of poker don't they:rolleyes:
 
masonman88

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I don't think there are bots on PS, just players who couldn't be bothered to speak English because they don't have a command of the English language.
At one time I use to think there may be bots, but PS use to have a system to detect bots, on occasion in the past, I must have been reported for being a bot because I wouldn't communicate with the table, I would always bet the same amount regardless the strength and had been a calling station, pretty passive really, not now, but to continue, on a couple of occasions I was prompted to type what was in the chat window, some random phrase.
I think that was the way PS use to check for bots.
I kinda remember that was a few years ago ? anyways it's just weird when you have a top pair for ie. and you get insta called with 7-9 :eek: and the the dealing speed changes :( and you are out when the 7-9 hits a full house or a four card flush or st8 crap like that that's not normal to the pace of the deal ! that's what makes me think things are not straight !
 
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I've always been a brick and mortar player. Just started playing online. Intertops is the site I chose after carefully researching for a while. From what I've noticed, at first i felt like it was somewhat regular. Now that I've played for a bit I've come to the conclusion that it's all horse manure. I have been on a bad beat I guess. It's not that I haven't had em before. It's just how the game has developed. I have been constantly beaten for 2 days in a row by almost impossible odds. Do you guys have a suggestion for a respectable site? Idk if there are any tbh
 
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My understanding is that it's mathematically impossible to rig the deal in an undetectable way. This is the only thing that is checked by auditing companies which makes the whole "we are audited by such and such" statement some rooms make basically a sham.

Everything that happens after the deal though is subject to manipulation and could be made undetectable if the software is sophisticated enough. And there are other types of rigging that don't involve manipulating the deck like opponents being able to view your cards.

Personally I wouldn't trust any computer software period, unless I see the the full code myself and in the case of poker, also have access to the RNG hardware to run my own tests on. You can debate what is and isn't possible all day long but ultimately there is no way to know what some clever criminal may have come up with that nobody else knows about. Like remember the time the combined might of the FBI and NSA couldn't crack an iphone then some small Israeli company came in and did it? What computers can do is basically limited only by imagination.

Further compounding the matter is the fact that all these companies operate in lawless areas beyond the reach of governments and legal authority. That's automatically super shady for any company. If you are 100% legit you wouldn't be engaging in any such dubious practices would you?

For me the convenience of online poker is a huge selling point and so I am willing to risk small amounts of money that I wouldn't care about if my funds were suddenly confiscated without cause or some such. For all my serious play I go to my local b&m casino. I know I can trust them because if they try to pull absolutely anything remotely shady they will not only get sued but very likely shutdown or heavily fined by the government.

Bottom line is I don't trust any company that is beyond my legal reach. That is the only real protection a player has against malfeasance.
 
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PIPIstrL

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Honestly, i didn't believe about the "action flop" theory.
I tried Wina during only 3 days and now i'm convicted. For sure it's fake !
I have a lot of screens to prove the theory.

Look this screen for example. It's a tournament. The BB is disconnected, i have 17BB and 22. The others players on my left are looses, on this moment of the tournament it's the best move to do to survive. I have to steal the BB, i decided all-in before the flop and it's just incredible what's happened. I played a lot of hands like this. The most terrible is the fact all the bad beats are in the river, not flop or turn but 80% river. The probability to live this kind of thing in live is rare. Only 3 days and i have a lot of screens to share. We're not talking about level or something else, only the "action flop" theory. I have noted also the board is often conjured by flush or quinte. It's not real. The second picture is typical i had not only one like this.

Are you convicted by this theory ?
 

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xRanieri

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I swear to God I want to make a debunk video about this topic, because everyone who plays online poker seems to believe this, and for good reasons: It happens. There's so many different sub-topics to talk about when discussing this topic.

OUR ABILITY TO ONLY REMEMBER CERTAIN HANDS
We don't have perfect memory. For example, you could play 10,000 hands, and you can't tell me off the top of your head what that distribution of dealt hands looks like. Our perception is skewed a bit, so we only seem to remember memorable things... makes sense.

WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU REFERRING TO
If a poker site would set up hands, what part of the hand would they set up? For example, the easiest way to gather more rake, if I was a corrupt poker site, would be to deal AA and KK in the same hand more often. So setting up preflop monsters is a good way, regardless of flops, turns, and rivers. I have yet to see, in my millions of recorded hands, setups like this that are happening more than the actual probability.

A better, more stealthy way to generate a bigger pot would be to create flops that give players monsters. This is a lot more difficult to accurately test. But again, my hands hit the flop pretty close in probability to a flopzilla calculation (it's skewed slightly because opponents have ranges Ex. An UTG open would slightly decrease the chances of an A hitting the flop (VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE). Let's say they open with a tight range of 66+, ATs+, AJo+, KQs. 58 combos have at least 1 ace as a hole card, out of 110 combos, as opposed to ATC, which would have at least once Ace as a hole card 198/1326. Even when an UTG folds, for example, it skews the probability in the opposite direction. Testing flops for set-ups is quite the difficult task. Turns and Rivers are a bit easier, as a set-up could be your opponent hitting a gutshot or something where both of you'd stack off, which is not as easy as the example I gave, but a lot easier than the flop.

NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCE
Everyone who believes that poker sites set up hands to generate action to build the pot to get more rake doesn't have enough evidence. And there's different ways to gather evidence about this hypothesis, some of which are more precise and accurate than others. But here's the problem: it's quite hard to get enough evidence to prove this. I guess the most inaccurate way to prove this hypothesis would to look at average pot sizes of all the hands of a particular stake on one poker site vs the average pot size of all the hands of a particular stake on another poker site. This has so many flaws, but it's an example of one way to gather evidence.

SOFTWARE AND ALGORITHMS
I'm a programmer, and quite a knowledgeable one at that (if I may brag a bit). First off, most poker sites that are decent in popularity explain their RNG systems. pokerstars randomization system is so advanced I don't even understand it; it shoots like quantum particles in the air that are random in nature and use that to determine their deck (IDK much about this). A lot of sites actually don't know what the flop will be preflop, according to these algorithms. They also don't know which of the remaining cards in the deck will be chosen for the turn until it gets to the turn, etc. This is different than an online slot machine, that when you choose "spin" or whatever, the outcome is already known, but the animations make you feel as though it's "spinning" or "calculating". These sites "allegedly" use pretty impressive CryptoAPIs.

THIRD-PARTY TESTERS
Also, there's usually a third-party that validates these claims; noncompliance would lead to serious lawsuits and shut down the site. The risk is too high to rig flops.

Yes, conspiracy theorists can deny the last two points I've made; after all, I didn't write the software. I didn't sit in the board meetings at poker site headquarters. I can't prove much with my set of hands I've captured.

Conclusion: So, we've all seen a couple of hands that look like clear setups. Our brains are horrible note-taking machines, and also horrible at math. You haven't taken into account all the hands played that didn't do this. Not only that, most of us conspiracy theorists haven't even taken an Introduction to Probability course where you'd learn concepts like variance. I've seen some pretty crazy percentages happen, because of the sheer amount of hands I've played. I've seen 3/3 people flop a flush. I've seen AA vs TT where AA ends up winning on a TT4 flop. I trust Intertops, PokerStars, Winning Poker, 888, partypoker, and other sites in these calibers for their randomness.

EDIT: I just realized the best way a poker site could rig hands would be to give both players the nuts; it'd end up all in, and the pot would be split, giving both players their money back, minus rake.
 
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kbolding7

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I heard someone once say that if you play on unregulated sites, then you can almost certainly expect unregulated stuff.
 
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