Hi folks, I'd like to hear what you think about the satellite tournaments at Pokerstars. I think the idea is really great, but I currently have a really big misunderstanding with the hands and the distribution of cards at Pokerstars. In the satellite tournaments and turbo sit and go tournaments in particular, unbelievable hand constellations take place. Although I currently play an extremely tight push range as a short stack and watching and analyzing my opponents accurately, I haven't really managed to play a single time in the prize money area - not just today. Here is a small selection of hands and what happen on the board that look like "unreal". I know about the variance, losing streaks and down swings and that the best hand preflop is not always the best hand on the river.

Still, I wonder if it makes sense to play at Pokerstars or if it is a waste of time, money and energy when such "incredible hands" and bad beats become standard. There are ALWAYS 3 or 4 players with good hands involved in such a push situation. I'm not talking about the happening of a single bad beat, but about the series and, above all, the unbelievable meeting of the hands at Pokerstars tables.

Another not unimportant note: I do not make ongoing deposits but try to increase my small bankroll via strict risk management - so I'm a rather bad customer of Pokerstars.

What do you think? By the way ... Hero is "URBRÖSEL".

Originally Posted by Austria7

Hi folks, I'd like to hear what you think about the satellite tournaments at Pokerstars. I think the idea is really great, but I currently have a really big misunderstanding with the hands and the distribution of cards at Pokerstars. In the satellite tournaments and turbo sit and go tournaments in particular, unbelievable hand constellations take place. Although I currently play an extremely tight push range as a short stack and watching and analyzing my opponents accurately, I haven't really managed to play a single time in the prize money area - not just today. Here is a small selection of hands and what happen on the board that look like "unreal". I know about the variance, losing streaks and down swings and that the best hand preflop is not always the best hand on the river.

Still, I wonder if it makes sense to play at Pokerstars or if it is a waste of time, money and energy when such "incredible hands" and bad beats become standard. There are ALWAYS 3 or 4 players with good hands involved in such a push situation. I'm not talking about the happening of a single bad beat, but about the series and, above all, the unbelievable meeting of the hands at Pokerstars tables.

Another not unimportant note: I do not make ongoing deposits but try to increase my small bankroll via strict risk management - so I'm a rather bad customer of Pokerstars.

What do you think? By the way ... Hero is "URBRÖSEL".

Hi, I fully understand your concerns as I have experienced the same issue, repeatedly at Poker Stars. It seems that I can play multiple SitN Go tourneys and do ok. ITM then it is like someone turned a switch and no matter which cards, how tight or loose or passive or aggressive I play I will regularly get knocked out of tourneys with Premium hands. This goes on for three or four tourneys then I start to win again for a short period of time then again someone turns the switch and I can't win for a period of time. This cycle repeats and repeats over and over. So my response is as I recognize the turning point of my win ability I quit playing for a day or two then it seems I can do ok for a while...I guess it is PokerStars way of getting players to play and INVEST $$$. I have been playing on PokerStars for over 10 years.

Here is an example that just happened, 3rd hand in Tourney. and when I got AA UTG. I knew it would be bad..

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/624O6fXMq

There is nothing strange about those hands at all. When you are all-in preflop in a 4-way pot, you are only going to win 1 out of 4 on average give or take. So losing 3 in a row, if that is, what happened, is totally normal. Depending on stacks sizes, and who went in first, its not even like, your opponents in those hands stacked off particularly light. Maybe there were a few questionable calls or pushes, but thats to be expected, when you are playing for pennies.

Actually in the first one, where you had AQs, it seems like, stacks were 200BB deep, and then you are making a big mistake as well. AQs is not a hand, you want to get all in preflop for that many blinds, and especially not against multible opponents. Two of them had better hands, so you were in terrible shape, and in that hand you were actually one of the "fish", who stacked off incorrectly.

The main issue however is, you are playing turbo and hyper turbo games, where stacks then to get very short, and then there are going to be a lot of all-in preflop situations, including a decent amount that goes multiway. And its just not a format, which allow skill edges to really show. So if you want to play "real poker", then move to cash games or regular speed tournaments instead. Even the 10 min blind interval SnGs gives you quite a lot more play already.

And get this silly idea out of your head, that the games are somehow rigged, and that PokerStars care, if you make regular deposits or withdraw or whatever. They are not risking their entire multi million dollar business to rig the deck in your 1,1$ satellites. They dont care, who win or lose in those. They only care to keep the gravy train running and collect the rake money.

Sunday, Febr. 21, 2021. 6 BB short stack - just shove with the best hand for "centuries" ...

Sunday, Febr. 21, 2021. 1st hand in a Sunday Storm satellite. Everybody plays loose like hell. Would you fold an open ended straight draw and two overs when 3 players push all-in in front of you on the flop??? And this happen all the time ...

Well I am right with you, yesterday I got knocked out 2nd hand with AA. and then today this happened:
https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/924O9PtdA

Sunday, Febr. 21, 2021. Hero is on the SB and really get a cheap flop ... okay just a little peace on the flop with middle pair but still with potential at 4th and 5th street and it is also cheap.

WOW - straightflush-draw on the turn (this hand is unfoldable right now).

Okay, on the river I am not losing with an overpair against another opponents trips this time (like usual) and yes, it is a possible straight or a full house out there. Sure, I am not holding the nuts but ... I can´t fold either, can I?

The problem is not losing a single bad beat or a tournament - frustration creeps up after another ... and another ... and another ... and another lost tournament and hand histories which seem "unreal" in some way.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

There is nothing strange about those hands at all. When you are all-in preflop in a 4-way pot, you are only going to win 1 out of 4 on average give or take. So losing 3 in a row, if that is, what happened, is totally normal. Depending on stacks sizes, and who went in first, its not even like, your opponents in those hands stacked off particularly light. Maybe there were a few questionable calls or pushes, but thats to be expected, when you are playing for pennies.

Actually in the first one, where you had AQs, it seems like, stacks were 200BB deep, and then you are making a big mistake as well. AQs is not a hand, you want to get all in preflop for that many blinds, and especially not against multible opponents. Two of them had better hands, so you were in terrible shape, and in that hand you were actually one of the "fish", who stacked off incorrectly.

The main issue however is, you are playing turbo and hyper turbo games, where stacks then to get very short, and then there are going to be a lot of all-in preflop situations, including a decent amount that goes multiway. And its just not a format, which allow skill edges to really show. So if you want to play "real poker", then move to cash games or regular speed tournaments instead. Even the 10 min blind interval SnGs gives you quite a lot more play already.

And get this silly idea out of your head, that the games are somehow rigged, and that PokerStars care, if you make regular deposits or withdraw or whatever. They are not risking their entire multi million dollar business to rig the deck in your 1,1$ satellites. They dont care, who win or lose in those. They only care to keep the gravy train running and collect the rake money.

It's true - the call with AQs is not really high-quality poker in that case ... guess it is
a sign of frustration and helplessness against super-extreme-loose players. What I tried to explain ... in this satellite tournaments with really low budget buy-ins it seems the cards and boards are always generate action and players are not bluffing at all ... the cards which are dealt in combination with the board make all that moves plausible. I never saw this at other poker rooms in this frequency. And I never saw running with an overpair against trips on the flop and got busted that often like in this tournament.

I don't want to imply anything about Pokerstars ... but you shouldn't always blindly rely on a brand name, which often causes discussion and appears conspicuous. And that's exactly what I'm trying to address here.

Nevertheless you are absolutely right - micro stacks and hyper turbo tournaments especially in combination are certainly not "high level poker". And when you play these levels and extremely fast tournaments you should know what you are getting into - you need a very thick skin and the frustration can be huge. On the other hand, you can of course earn the buy-in for higher tournaments for very little money.

Originally Posted by CDNMAN 42

Hi, I fully understand your concerns as I have experienced the same issue, repeatedly at Poker Stars. It seems that I can play multiple SitN Go tourneys and do ok. ITM then it is like someone turned a switch and no matter which cards, how tight or loose or passive or aggressive I play I will regularly get knocked out of tourneys with Premium hands. This goes on for three or four tourneys then I start to win again for a short period of time then again someone turns the switch and I can't win for a period of time. This cycle repeats and repeats over and over. So my response is as I recognize the turning point of my win ability I quit playing for a day or two then it seems I can do ok for a while...I guess it is PokerStars way of getting players to play and INVEST $$$. I have been playing on PokerStars for over 10 years.

Hello, thank you for your evaluation and sharing your similar experiences you have had. I'll keep an eye on the win cycles - maybe I'll be able to handle situations like this better. From a financial perspective, this current phase of the losing streak is not the problem, but rather the psychological component. It is like the proverbial drop that hollowed out the stone.

Originally Posted by Austria7

It's true - the call with AQs is not really high-quality poker in that case ... guess it is a sign of frustration and helplessness against super-extreme-loose players.

Yes you are tilting. I recommend taking a break and spend the time to think about, what your goals are with poker, and how you approach the game. And right away the word "satellites" spring to my mind. Its ok to play these sometimes, I have also started to do that myself. But they should not make up more than 5-10% of the games, you play, and you should not spend more than a fraction of a percent of your bankroll on a satellite.

So if you have a small bankroll like 100$, then forget these 1,1$ satellites and start grinding the 1$ 45-man and 180-man instead, or even just some 1,1$ MTTs. If you have a slightly larger bankroll like 300$, then play the 3,5$ SnGs and some 2,2$ MTTs, and only throw in an occational 1,1$ satellite to the Sunday Storm or something similar. Building up a poker bankroll from scratch is a slow process, so forget that dream about a single large win, which changes everything.

Originally Posted by Austria7

What I tried to explain ... in this satellite tournaments with really low budget buy-ins it seems the cards and boards are always generate action and players are not bluffing at all ... the cards which are dealt in combination with the board make all that moves plausible.

Not in any of those hands, you shared. In the 3 all-in preflop hands, half the hands involved should have been folded. A7o or A3o are not hands, that should call or overjam, when someone else has already moved in. At least not for those 15BB or whatever, each player seemed to have.

And in the hand, where you flopped an OESD, stacks were apparently 200BB deep, and it was a limped pot. Yet 3 guys moved all in on the flop with just top pair, which is an absolutely crazy overplay. In any game with just slightly more reasonable players that hand would have resulted in A9 winning two streets of betting and no more.

Then you shared a hand, where you got coolered by hitting two pair on the river, but your opponent already had a straight. In that hand everyone played more standard, but as a result stacks did also not go in. You lost a chunk of your chips, but you were still in the tournament, and coolers like this are just part of poker. There is nothing weird or unusual about one player having trips and another a straight and even less so in a multiway pot.

Originally Posted by Austria7

I never saw this at other poker rooms in this frequency.

The same have been said a million times about any poker room since the beginning of online poker. Its always the exact room, where the tilted player is right now, that must be rigged, since he is losing.

Originally Posted by Austria7

Nevertheless you are absolutely right - micro stacks and hyper turbo tournaments especially in combination are certainly not "high level poker". And when you play these levels and extremely fast tournaments you should know what you are getting into - you need a very thick skin and the frustration can be huge.

Exactly. The normal SnGs on Stars can actually be a bit of a nitty affair sometimes, including the 1$ 45-man and 180-man. so if you are tilting and tired of "crazy action", playing those might actually help calm you down. You are not going to win life changing money of course, but winning 5$ or 10$ in a session is better than winning nothing.

Thank you guys for the good advices. Yes, I need to get away from poker for some time to recover.

It would be nice if we could live in freedom and travel or just go shopping - unfortunately that is denied to the many citizens in some countries of Europe. And then it looks like this is now standard. If I think about it, the deprivation of liberty due to the current health situation is a fact that is also incredible mentally stressful for me (and any other person I met in the last months) and does not contribute to a balanced basic attitude which is definitely a disadvantage for good poker.

Well, who would have thought that we live in a time when you can't even buy a lightbulb in the hardware store for months if it is broken because the government decides that it is better to close the hardware store because of a virus pandemic. Well, we citizens get what we vote for politically ...

Originally Posted by CDNMAN 42

Here is an example that just happened, 3rd hand in Tourney. and when I got AA UTG. I knew it would be bad..

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/624O6fXMq

Hi CDNMAN 42, an interesting hand. As far as I can tell you did everything right - but so did your opponent with ATs. The hand is played correctly by both of you in my opinion. Your opponent actually gets the better hand (> 50% because of 15 outs) against a possible overpair on the flop with a flush draw, gutshot-straightdraw and an overcard. This is of course tragic and frustrating when you always lose with overpair to a draw that only happens every third time. However, your opponent was lucky to get the flush draw exactly when he plays against an overpair and then his draw arrives on the river. Don't be discouraged - keep playing that way.

Originally Posted by CDNMAN 42

Here is an example that just happened, 3rd hand in Tourney. and when I got AA UTG. I knew it would be bad..

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/624O6fXMq

That hand is obviously a bit of a cooler, but we always want to focus on the part, we control, which is our own decisions. And I certainly think, some better decions could have been made in this hand.

Preflop
This is the first blind level, so stacks are still 75BB deep. With such deep stacks I dont like min-raising. You are inviting a multiway pot, where the risk of getting your aces cracked goes up dramatically. I would make it 3BB to thin the field and simply charge them more to see a flop with whatever, they have.

Flop
5 people saw the flop, and this is a very dangerous situation for an overpair. Its somewhat unlikely, anyone has a 3, but its certainly not impossible, especially when you gave big blind a almost free look at the flop. He can have almost any two cards, and the other guys can also have at least A3, 33 or 44.

There is actually even an argument to check here and see, what develops, before you start to put more chips in the pot. If people have hands like KT or QJ, they are essentially drawing dead, so there is little value in betting and getting those hands to fold. If they catch up and turn top pair, thats actually great, because now you can get paid.

C-betting is not bad though, and when you face a call and a small raise, its also ok to give that action. However when the caller now comes over the top for a back-raise, and the raiser gives this action, you need to let those aces go. You are good here maybe 20% of the time, and when you are behind, you are drawing very thin. Knowing when to let an overpair go is part of, what separate experienced poker players from beginners.

Originally Posted by Austria7

What do you think? By the way ... Hero is "URBRÖSEL".

I think, it is a waste of time on ps. And not because of the similar situations. (All 3 what you have posted was 4 way allin, so anything can happen. Sometimes, I play the very micro satellites in other rooms, where is countless rebuys, or freezout, but hyper, and starts often. I count on it, don't care, even play for it, too, as you must build a good stack before the last phase, that you could go there, as chipleader on the table, so it is almost like a benefit to reach the sat prize)

However the river 1-3 falls, the 2 way pre-flop allins with 80-20 to me chance, the backdoor flush and straight etc. The runs, 'bad beats' with combinations like these makes it totally pointless playing there, as sometimes it keeps going like this for weeks. And never turned to my direction, not even on satellites, where i play much wilder range, but it happens against me again and again....

So for me ps only for CC freerolls and fun, as I counted the variances of few runs like this, and it should happen once in a lifetime, not in every month. (I have found similar ones on other sites, too, but on this one, it was the craziest.) I cannot take that site, RNG seriously at all, even the look like of the platform, it is for fun, nothing else, so only waste of money + they don't have real reward program, and charging the highest fees on the market....

In my opinion, any room is better than that one. If you like sats, I would recommend you the partypoker (they have plenty very micro sats), at least I've played plenty sats there, back in time, that looked like more or less okay to me for months.

Originally Posted by Adi8877

I think, it is a waste of time on ps. And not because of the similar situations. (All 3 what you have posted was 4 way allin, so anything can happen. Sometimes, I play the very micro satellites in other rooms, where is countless rebuys, or freezout, but hyper, and starts often. I count on it, don't care, even play for it, too, as you must build a good stack before the last phase, that you could go there, as chipleader on the table, so it is almost like a benefit to reach the sat prize)

However the river 1-3 falls, the 2 way pre-flop allins with 80-20 to me chance, the backdoor flush and straight etc. The runs, 'bad beats' with combinations like these makes it totally pointless playing there, as sometimes it keeps going like this for weeks. And never turned to my direction, not even on satellites, where i play much wilder range, but it happens against me again and again....

So for me ps only for CC freerolls and fun, as I counted the variances of few runs like this, and it should happen once in a lifetime, not in every month. (I have found similar ones on other sites, too, but on this one, it was the craziest.) I cannot take that site, RNG seriously at all, even the look like of the platform, it is for fun, nothing else, so only waste of money + they don't have real reward program, and charging the highest fees on the market....

In my opinion, any room is better than that one. If you like sats, I would recommend you the partypoker (they have plenty very micro sats), at least I've played plenty sats there, back in time, that looked like more or less okay to me for months.

Hi Adi8877, thanks for your evaluation Yes, I agree with you that things are pretty wild on PS in the micro stacks. I think there are quite a few recreational players who just want maximum action and entertainment after a long day at work - and that is undoubtedly offered to them. I am also thinking about playing less buy-in tournaments at PS because it makes no sense to play on the lower levels to build up your bankroll, instead using the opportunity to use freerolls to maybe cash a few times. Thanks for your reference to Party Poker - I'll take a closer look at other poker rooms in general. Thank you again, have a good time and good luck at the poker tables.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

That hand is obviously a bit of a cooler, but we always want to focus on the part, we control, which is our own decisions. And I certainly think, some better decions could have been made in this hand.

Preflop
This is the first blind level, so stacks are still 75BB deep. With such deep stacks I dont like min-raising. You are inviting a multiway pot, where the risk of getting your aces cracked goes up dramatically. I would make it 3BB to thin the field and simply charge them more to see a flop with whatever, they have.

Flop
5 people saw the flop, and this is a very dangerous situation for an overpair. Its somewhat unlikely, anyone has a 3, but its certainly not impossible, especially when you gave big blind a almost free look at the flop. He can have almost any two cards, and the other guys can also have at least A3, 33 or 44.

There is actually even an argument to check here and see, what develops, before you start to put more chips in the pot. If people have hands like KT or QJ, they are essentially drawing dead, so there is little value in betting and getting those hands to fold. If they catch up and turn top pair, thats actually great, because now you can get paid.

C-betting is not bad though, and when you face a call and a small raise, its also ok to give that action. However when the caller now comes over the top for a back-raise, and the raiser gives this action, you need to let those aces go. You are good here maybe 20% of the time, and when you are behind, you are drawing very thin. Knowing when to let an overpair go is part of, what separate experienced poker players from beginners.

Hi fundiver122, it's an interesting point of view. You're right, the open raise could be made a little higher at the early level.

But what I notice again in this hand (and please don't accuse me of believing in manipulated software) - there are 3 hands that are practically impossible to fold on the flop.

For CDNMAN42: It is relatively unlikely, if possible, that the opponent will receive trips.

For GEESTAR21624: It is even less likely that someone will flop a better hand than Trips. We're not talking about the best hand on the river, but actually the best hand on the flop. Now it gets interesting ... CDNMAN42 will consider: How often does it happen that someone receives trips on the flop? Isn't it a very good flop for an overpair to have another pair on the flop because of the rarity of trips? And yet the trips of GEESTAR 21624 are even surpassed by the full house of Shizoook. What is the probability that the best overpair against trips against a full house happens on the flop in the same hand? Now it gets even more interesting ... how many such game situations occur in a given period of time?

The question that arises in my opinion is not that such a game situation cannot occur, but the frequency of such "unbelievable" game situations. Of course there is variance and streaks of bad luck and a non-linear probability distribution, but there are also statistical values ​​that are meaningful over a longer period of time. I think that what players with a static background are really completely tilted is the low probability of "unbelievable" game situations which then suddenly occur more frequently combined with their own high probability of winning in a single hand which does not occur. What do you think?

Originally Posted by Austria7

But what I notice again in this hand (and please don't accuse me of believing in manipulated software) - there are 3 hands that are practically impossible to fold on the flop.

Yes but this will obviously happen from time to time. And the thing is, if they all have the KT or QJ type hands, that missed completely, then they will just fold. And because you only won a small pot and did not see their hands, you quickly forget about it.

Also its not "practically impossible" to fold AA on the flop with that action and stack depth. In fact, this is, how nits made a ton of money mass multi tabling micro stakes cash games 10+ years ago. They just sat there all day long and waited for a set, and then they stacked someone, who could not fold a top pair or overpair type hand.

Whenever two guys are all in against each other already, you need to remember, that you still get to see their hands, even you fold. So you get cheap information, and if they both have something retarded, then take a note on it and come after them in future hands. Yes it sucks to lose a quarter of your chips making an incorrect fold, but it sucks way more to lose all your chips making an incorrect call.

However, the variance is already too high on the PS.


Good luck.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

There is nothing strange about those hands at all. When you are all-in preflop in a 4-way pot, you are only going to win 1 out of 4 on average give or take. So losing 3 in a row, if that is, what happened, is totally normal. Depending on stacks sizes, and who went in first, its not even like, your opponents in those hands stacked off particularly light. Maybe there were a few questionable calls or pushes, but thats to be expected, when you are playing for pennies.

Actually in the first one, where you had AQs, it seems like, stacks were 200BB deep, and then you are making a big mistake as well. AQs is not a hand, you want to get all in preflop for that many blinds, and especially not against multible opponents. Two of them had better hands, so you were in terrible shape, and in that hand you were actually one of the "fish", who stacked off incorrectly.

The main issue however is, you are playing turbo and hyper turbo games, where stacks then to get very short, and then there are going to be a lot of all-in preflop situations, including a decent amount that goes multiway. And its just not a format, which allow skill edges to really show. So if you want to play "real poker", then move to cash games or regular speed tournaments instead. Even the 10 min blind interval SnGs gives you quite a lot more play already.

And get this silly idea out of your head, that the games are somehow rigged, and that PokerStars care, if you make regular deposits or withdraw or whatever. They are not risking their entire multi million dollar business to rig the deck in your 1,1$ satellites. They dont care, who win or lose in those. They only care to keep the gravy train running and collect the rake money.

I completely agree with the above analysis of starting hands. And would add that PStars is gradually increasing the speed of the SnG (as well as ante), persuading users to such game with family pots. The benefit for the room is in a rake squeezing for the same time unit (the official tagline, of course, is a sweet blablabla), a minus for regular players is in increasing of random luck share in favorit formats.
It is not a matter of a dealing cards algorithm, I am sure, at least not at PStars.
I wish to support the thread starter and say Good Luck. Hope it will help a little.

I hate to be a broken record but this has happened sod many times, especially in the late stages of a tournament, I'm getting to think that once I have a decent cash stack I should just sit out until ITM ???

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/924Ocppok

And just to make my day complete, with only 7BB left and 1 away from final table. I get the 'coup de grace'
https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/924OcrWCb

Well I experience this kind of bad beats each day, sometimes on POKERSTARS but much more often on 888.
I personnaly noticed 2 facts:
- Of course it happens very very often when you play hyperturbo or turbo tournaments, because of the urgent need of increasing stack.. and of the kind of players you face there.
- This also frequently happens in normal or regular speed tournaments, especially when you get close to the bubble and just AFTER the bubble (tables cleaning ?).
Of course I know that in these particular moments the variance will be increased by the fact that big stacks will push or call all in holding medium hands and even win.
But the fact is: it is good for the room to accelerate the tournament or SNG, because of rake.
I don't think POKERSTARS is really rigged but IMO it would be technically possible .

Originally Posted by lauestla

and just AFTER the bubble (tables cleaning ?).

After the bubble the number of eliminations will tend to go up, because people, who played conservatively to make it into the money, will now try to increase their stack, so they can make a deep run. This is called "post bubble bustout bonanza", and you see it in live tournaments as well as online.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

After the bubble the number of eliminations will tend to go up, because people, who played conservatively to make it into the money, will now try to increase their stack, so they can make a deep run. This is called "post bubble bustout bonanza", and you see it in live tournaments as well as online.

Hi fundiver199, I've seen this phenomenon several times but I didn't know there is a special term for it. Thanks for your expertise.

Originally Posted by lauestla

Well I experience this kind of bad beats each day, sometimes on POKERSTARS but much more often on 888.
I personnaly noticed 2 facts:
- Of course it happens very very often when you play hyperturbo or turbo tournaments, because of the urgent need of increasing stack.. and of the kind of players you face there.
- This also frequently happens in normal or regular speed tournaments, especially when you get close to the bubble and just AFTER the bubble (tables cleaning ?).
Of course I know that in these particular moments the variance will be increased by the fact that big stacks will push or call all in holding medium hands and even win.
But the fact is: it is good for the room to accelerate the tournament or SNG, because of rake.
I don't think POKERSTARS is really rigged but IMO it would be technically possible .

Hi Lautestla, thanks for your assessment. As Fundiver 199 has already mentioned, Pokerstars cannot afford to manipulate the software in favor of a few players. I think so too and I agree. Of course, in a drawdown phase, one likes to blame others for losing, but that is of course nonsense. I just have to accept it, not look for excuses, and improve my poker game and adjust the tournament selection to my mental state.

But in my opinion you have observed one point very well ... if the poker room accelerates the tournament in any way it will of course be more lucrative for it in terms of getting more rake or saving server capacity or simply energy could be saved or optimized.

After some consideration I even came to the conclusion that a possible "technical acceleration of the tournament" in some types of tournaments (such as hyperturbos or low budget satellites) could even make sense - these tournaments are more likely to be played by fun players or players who mainly play in push-fold mode and like to gamble anyway. After all, recreational players get exactly what they want in these formats - action and entertainment. On top of that, it would be pretty frustrating to get dozens of junk hands to be disguised with in a hyperturbo. Thank you for pointing out the increased variance due to more frequent pushes from big stacks, especially in the phase immediately after the bubble. I learned a lot again today.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

Exactly. The normal SnGs on Stars can actually be a bit of a nitty affair sometimes, including the 1$ 45-man and 180-man. so if you are tilting and tired of "crazy action", playing those might actually help calm you down. You are not going to win life changing money of course, but winning 5$ or 10$ in a session is better than winning nothing.

That's a good advice. After a cooling-off period, I'll deal with these slower tournaments. Thanks for that.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

Yes it sucks to lose a quarter of your chips making an incorrect fold, but it sucks way more to lose all your chips making an incorrect call.

A really good point of view with a lot of wisdom. I'll keep that in mind, thanks for that.

Originally Posted by Austria7

Hi folks, I'd like to hear what you think about the satellite tournaments at Pokerstars. I think the idea is really great, but I currently have a really big misunderstanding with the hands and the distribution of cards at Pokerstars. In the satellite tournaments and turbo sit and go tournaments in particular, unbelievable hand constellations take place. Although I currently play an extremely tight push range as a short stack and watching and analyzing my opponents accurately, I haven't really managed to play a single time in the prize money area - not just today. Here is a small selection of hands and what happen on the board that look like "unreal". I know about the variance, losing streaks and down swings and that the best hand preflop is not always the best hand on the river.

Still, I wonder if it makes sense to play at Pokerstars or if it is a waste of time, money and energy when such "incredible hands" and bad beats become standard. There are ALWAYS



3 or 4 players with good hands involved in such a push situation. I'm not talking about the happening of a single bad beat, but about the series and, above all, the unbelievable meeting of the hands at Pokerstars tables.

Another not unimportant note: I do not make ongoing deposits but try to increase my small bankroll via strict risk management - so I'm a rather bad customer of Pokerstars.

What do you think? By the way ... Hero is "URBRÖSEL".

Bottom line here is your questioning whether the flops are really truly random? That is the big question and answer is we will probably really never know, I have discovered through my own research that it is not overly difficult to manipulate dealing programs but why would a site like Poker Stars risk it? I played on that site for years before black Friday and what I have also discovered that in micro stakes whether it be cash games or turneys people play so insane that it does not really even matter if somebody or something is altering the deal, plus remember if they were doing that they have no way of knowing what a player will do or act in any given hand. I guarantee you that in higher stakes games you will find the bad beats are way less! Micro is and has always been insane!

Originally Posted by oldgrinder63

Bottom line here is your questioning whether the flops are really truly random? That is the big question and answer is we will probably really never know, I have discovered through my own research that it is not overly difficult to manipulate dealing programs but why would a site like Poker Stars risk it? I played on that site for years before black Friday and what I have also discovered that in micro stakes whether it be cash games or turneys people play so insane that it does not really even matter if somebody or something is altering the deal, plus remember if they were doing that they have no way of knowing what a player will do or act in any given hand. I guarantee you that in higher stakes games you will find the bad beats are way less! Micro is and has always been insane!

Hello Oldgrinder63, thank you for your opinion and assessment. It's reassuring to hear that in the higher game levels the game itself changes for the more positive way and the frequent bad beats are more due to the crazy style of play in the micro stacks. It is also true that possible manipulations and the subsequent player behavior are not always predictable, which in turn makes manipulation difficult. I also didn't know that it was that easy to manipulate player software.

However, today we live in a digital world in which it is becoming increasingly difficult to distinguish truth from fake. Since the discovery and constant further development of artificial intelligence, it has also become more and more difficult to recognize it when it is used in a negative sense (manipulation to maximize winners in the financial markets, taking advantage of economic life or influencing people's thoughts in general). In my opinion, it is therefore incredibly important that people are aware and remain independent in their own thinking.

I believe that PS is already doing a good job with their software (although there is still room for improvement in terms of customer service, customer satisfaction and variety in the poker variants).

This all looks pretty standard to me. As previously mentioned, these are kind of bingo tourneys since the blinds are so rapid. I do badly races, I prefer to win pots without showing down by betting appropriately.

Playing poker is a waste of money for 99% of people. Think about that. If you're playing for fun, then it's a waste of time if you're not having fun. The only consistent thing about this game is that you lose most of the time.

Originally Posted by Austria7

Hi folks, I'd like to hear what you think about the satellite tournaments at Pokerstars. I think the idea is really great, but I currently have a really big misunderstanding with the hands and the distribution of cards at Pokerstars. In the satellite tournaments and turbo sit and go tournaments in particular, unbelievable hand constellations take place. Although I currently play an extremely tight push range as a short stack and watching and analyzing my opponents accurately, I haven't really managed to play a single time in the prize money area - not just today. Here is a small selection of hands and what happen on the board that look like "unreal". I know about the variance, losing streaks and down swings and that the best hand preflop is not always the best hand on the river.

Still, I wonder if it makes sense to play at Pokerstars or if it is a waste of time, money and energy when such "incredible hands" and bad beats become standard. There are ALWAYS 3 or 4 players with good hands involved in such a push situation. I'm not talking about the happening of a single bad beat, but about the series and, above all, the unbelievable meeting of the hands at Pokerstars tables.

Another not unimportant note: I do not make ongoing deposits but try to increase my small bankroll via strict risk management - so I'm a rather bad customer of Pokerstars.

What do you think? By the way ... Hero is "URBRÖSEL".

Originally Posted by Austria7

Hi folks, I'd like to hear what you think about the satellite tournaments at Pokerstars. I think the idea is really great, but I currently have a really big misunderstanding with the hands and the distribution of cards at Pokerstars. In the satellite tournaments and turbo sit and go tournaments in particular, unbelievable hand constellations take place. Although I currently play an extremely tight push range as a short stack and watching and analyzing my opponents accurately, I haven't really managed to play a single time in the prize money area - not just today. Here is a small selection of hands and what happen on the board that look like "unreal". I know about the variance, losing streaks and down swings and that the best hand preflop is not always the best hand on the river.

Still, I wonder if it makes sense to play at Pokerstars or if it is a waste of time, money and energy when such "incredible hands" and bad beats become standard. There are ALWAYS 3 or 4 players with good hands involved in such a push situation. I'm not talking about the happening of a single bad beat, but about the series and, above all, the unbelievable meeting of the hands at Pokerstars tables.

Another not unimportant note: I do not make ongoing deposits but try to increase my small bankroll via strict risk management - so I'm a rather bad customer of Pokerstars.

What do you think? By the way ... Hero is "URBRÖSEL".

Originally Posted by puzzlefish

Playing poker is a waste of money for 99% of people. Think about that. If you're playing for fun, then it's a waste of time if you're not having fun. The only consistent thing about this game is that you lose most of the time.

Hello puzzlefish, your statement is not entirely wrong. It is factually true that most players lose money in the long run and few actually win. In my opinion 95% of people actually fail to make money in the long term. However, you can learn to be one of the winners. There are many examples from sports, the business or financial world and also in the area of ​​gambling where people have become successful through hard work. Ultimately, that's exactly what makes the difference. But it shouldn't always be about winning, but about fun, pastime and also excitement and entertainment. So it is true that it is a complete waste of time if you don't enjoy the game.

Originally Posted by Austria7

Hello puzzlefish, your statement is not entirely wrong. It is factually true that most players lose money in the long run and few actually win. In my opinion 95% of people actually fail to make money in the long term. However, you can learn to be one of the winners. There are many examples from sports, the business or financial world and also in the area of ​​gambling where people have become successful through hard work. Ultimately, that's exactly what makes the difference. But it shouldn't always be about winning, but about fun, pastime and also excitement and entertainment. So it is true that it is a complete waste of time if you don't enjoy the game.

I think the more you play this game, especially online, the more you are going to find that the hard work you are putting into it has a very very low return on your time investment. Let's say even if we use your 95% estimate, you are looking to be in that 5% that make money and become one of the winners. But even then, have you considered that there is a range of individuals in that 5%? Many will barely scrape by at break even or slightly positive. How many get consistent returns? The odds are stacked against you psychologically (the nature of the game itself), technologically (the use of everything from solvers to HUDs to bots to blatant collusion), and situationally (the format of the game is increasingly shifting into high variance and/or prolonged rebuy/late registration). Yet there is still this mass peddling of hard work bravado as if this is something that is worth pursuing and pouring your time into.

In the end, let's tie this back into the origin of this entire thread. If these types of hands are bothering you, then chances are that you are going to find yourself in that 95% population.

Originally Posted by puzzlefish

Let's say even if we use your 95% estimate, you are looking to be in that 5% that make money and become one of the winners. But even then, have you considered that there is a range of individuals in that 5%? Many will barely scrape by at break even or slightly positive. How many get consistent returns?

It might be true, that only 5% of poker players are long term winners. However this is not the entire picture, because the long term winners AKA "regulars" tend to play way more than the losing players. The typical pattern is, people come into online poker, play for a while, lose for a while, and then they either stop playing or begin to study and improve. The regulars on the other hand continue playing and often end up putting in millions of hands. They also tend to play far more hands per hour, because they multitable.

Originally Posted by puzzlefish

The odds are stacked against you psychologically (the nature of the game itself), technologically (the use of everything from solvers to HUDs to bots to blatant collusion), and situationally (the format of the game is increasingly shifting into high variance and/or prolonged rebuy/late registration).

That might all be true, but its also painting a really bleak picture, which in my experience is not really true for those micro and low stakes games, most people play. There are still plenty of soft games around even on a site like PokerStars. They are just not games, that are going to make you rich quickly.

Originally Posted by puzzlefish

Yet there is still this mass peddling of hard work bravado as if this is something that is worth pursuing and pouring your time into.

Each person has to decide for themselfes, how they want to spend their time. And as long as its an informed choise, spending time playing poker is hardly worse than spending time on so many other things. Sure you are not going to save the world playing poker. But you are also not going to save the world watching movies or climbing mountains. Do I think, poker is a particularly good career choise? Probably not for most people, but as a hobby or side hustle I really see nothing wrong with it.

Originally Posted by puzzlefish

In the end, let's tie this back into the origin of this entire thread. If these types of hands are bothering you, then chances are that you are going to find yourself in that 95% population.

All poker players hate losing, so there is hardly anyone, who can say, that coolers and bad beats dont affect them emotionally. However if it affects someone enough, that they start speculating about rigged games, and/or feel a need to went in a forum, then I agree, that chances are against that person becoming a winning player. Or at least they have a lot of work cut out for them as far as the mental part of the game is concerned.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

It might be true, that only 5% of poker players are long term winners. However this is not the entire picture, because the long term winners AKA "regulars" tend to play way more than the losing players. The typical pattern is, people come into online poker, play for a while, lose for a while, and then they either stop playing or begin to study and improve. The regulars on the other hand continue playing and often end up putting in millions of hands. They also tend to play far more hands per hour, because they multitable.



That might all be true, but its also painting a really bleak picture, which in my experience is not really true for those micro and low stakes games, most people play. There are still plenty of soft games around even on a site like PokerStars. They are just not games, that are going to make you rich quickly.




Each person has to decide for themselfes, how they want to spend their time. And as long as its an informed choise, spending time playing poker is hardly worse than spending time on so many other things. Sure you are not going to save the world playing poker. But you are also not going to save the world watching movies or climbing mountains. Do I think, poker is a particularly good career choise? Probably not for most people, but as a hobby or side hustle I really see nothing wrong with it.



All poker players hate losing, so there is hardly anyone, who can say, that coolers and bad beats dont affect them emotionally. However if it affects someone enough, that they start speculating about rigged games, and/or feel a need to went in a forum, then I agree, that chances are against that person becoming a winning player. Or at least they have a lot of work cut out for them as far as the mental part of the game is concerned.

Doesn't address the fact that even of the 5%, the definition of "winning" is vague. I am sure if you tighten that up to something that resembles a decent ROI then that percentage shrinks further. Then, on top of that, not everyone who makes it into that group will stay there.

Poker used to be about finding the really soft games against players who didn't know what they are doing. It's just not the same anymore, even though you claim there are plenty of soft games.

I know you seem to have a good track record, but that's simply not the case for the vast majority of players.

the beats will happen stay in the game

discipline always wins longterm invest in yourself

Originally Posted by puzzlefish

Poker used to be about finding the really soft games against players who didn't know what they are doing. It's just not the same anymore, even though you claim there are plenty of soft games.

Obviously online poker or for that matter even live poker is not, like it was in 2005. Today we have training sites and lots of software, which can help people improve their game. Online poker has also never really completely recovered from the loss of the US market in 2011. And for these reasons the time, where a talented young player like Tom Dwan could deposit a small amount and run it up to millions in a few years, are not coming back.

However this does not mean, that there are no soft games online. Lately I have been playing some traditional 6-18 man SnGs on PokerStars, and these are certainly very soft up to the 3,5$ level and the 5$ KO as well. There are people in these with a VPIP of 80%, and there are a ton of limped pots. These are certainly not players, who "know what they are doing". The issue is, that already at the 7$ level, the quality of play goes up at least a bit. And obviously nobody are getting rich from playing 3,5$ SnGs or even 7$ SnGs. So its not difficult to win in online poker, but its difficult to win money, that really matter to most people.

Originally Posted by puzzlefish

I think the more you play this game, especially online, the more you are going to find that the hard work you are putting into it has a very very low return on your time investment. Let's say even if we use your 95% estimate, you are looking to be in that 5% that make money and become one of the winners. But even then, have you considered that there is a range of individuals in that 5%? Many will barely scrape by at break even or slightly positive. How many get consistent returns? The odds are stacked against you psychologically (the nature of the game itself), technologically (the use of everything from solvers to HUDs to bots to blatant collusion), and situationally (the format of the game is increasingly shifting into high variance and/or prolonged rebuy/late registration). Yet there is still this mass peddling of hard work bravado as if this is something that is worth pursuing and pouring your time into.

In the end, let's tie this back into the origin of this entire thread. If these types of hands are bothering you, then chances are that you are going to find yourself in that 95% population.

Hi Puzzlefish, you are quite right about your contribution. It is actually true that it takes a lot of energy and time to actually progress and that the effort is very little worth it. Thanks for the insight. Overall, your post made me very thoughtful. In online poker, it feels like the gold rush of the 19th century were very few miners getting rich and most spending more than winnings. Only the shops selling shovels and equipment got really rich. It feels like the winners of online poker are the poker rooms, software companies and poker coaches. I should actually consider what my own (and realistically achievable) goals in poker are. If I actually see poker as entertainment without pursuing a higher goal (similar to going to the cinema with popcorn or going to a baseball match) it seems a much better "investment" than to take it too seriously. I will then probably deal more relaxed with profits and losses. It's true: There are already a lot of good poker players who have been dealing with Poker for decades and only very few good new young players who can count themselves among the 5%. I think it's okay to develop a little for fun in poker, but that the effort doesn't pay off to be part of the 5%.

Originally Posted by Austria7

Sunday, Febr. 21, 2021. 1st hand in a Sunday Storm satellite. Everybody plays loose like hell. Would you fold an open ended straight draw and two overs when 3 players push all-in in front of you on the flop??? And this happen all the time ...

Yes. The only time you should call an all in flop with only a draw is when you have both the flush AND straight draw.

Originally Posted by Austria7

It feels like the winners of online poker are the poker rooms, software companies and poker coaches.

For sure the share of profits from online poker taken home by players have gone down over the years. This is also why, a lot of professional poker players have some other source of income than winning money at the tables. They are employed by a poker site to advertise it, or they run training sites. And to this we can now add streaming as an important source of income.

Finally most high stakes tournament players on the live scene have backers or sell pieces of their action. And the common list of "life time cashes" dont take into account either buyins or travel costs. So it might sound fantastic, that someone have life time cashes of 30 million dollars, but this certainly dont mean, they have 30 million in profits. Maybe they have 5 million dollars in profit, and of those money the majority went to their backers.

1st tournament today, first playable hand and 5th hand at this tournament, blinds 50/100, 3 limpers in front of me in that hand, got KK on the small blind and decided for a potsized bet, big blind 3bets all-in with 99 BB, limpers mucked their hands, I called the 3bet-jam ... big blind showed 32s (I am a 80.9 % favorite in that situation) but the player at the big blind got the straight on the flop. Next time I fold KK because there is no way to win with high pocket pairs ... Poker evening is over again.

Originally Posted by Austria7

1st tournament today, first playable hand and 5th hand at this tournament, blinds 50/100, 3 limpers in front of me in that hand, got KK on the small blind and decided for a potsized bet, big blind 3bets all-in with 99 BB, limpers mucked their hands, I called the 3bet-jam ... big blind showed 32s (I am a 80.9 % favorite in that situation) but the player at the big blind got the straight on the flop. Next time I fold KK because there is no way to win with high pocket pairs ... Poker evening is over again.

If getting unlucky in a single hand is enough to make you stop a poker session after just 5 hands, then you should probably consider giving up this game entirely. Losing is part of the game, and we all lose hands, where we were a favourite to win. Like for instance this hand from my last SnG session on PokerStars:

CardsChat Poker Hands Converter

I know, it feels unjust, when poor play is rewarded by lady luck. But poker is not about justice. Poker is about math, and 32s has just as much equity against KK as a hand like QQ or JJ. So the first thing to ask here is, if you would rather have been against AA with less than 20% equity or against AQs with around 67% equity? And the answer is of course not.

You were happy, that he flipped over a hand like 32s, which you were a big favourite against. You just did not like the runout. But again bad runouts are going to happen, like in that hand I posted a link to. Its part of the game, and every single poker player could make a list with 100`s or 1.000`s of bad beats, depending how much they play.

The other thing is, if you are going to play, then why are you playing a 5c satellite to a 55c tournament? For sure its good to start in the micros, so we dont risk losing a lot of hard earned money while learning the game. But there is no point in starting this low. If you want to play a 55c MTT, then just buy in directly. Or play some 1$ 45-180 man SnGs, like I already suggested. Dont waste your time with something, thats essentially play money games, and especially not if you get frustrated about outcomes like this.

I think, OP is at a point, where he need to make one of the following decisions:

1) Decide that poker is not for him and find another hobby.

2) Play poker recreationally.

3) Begin to take the game and himself serious.

If the choise is 1), there is obviously no need for further advice in a poker forum.

If the choise is 2), then I advice to find some games, he actually enjoy playing, and then make a budget. It could be something like the 2,2$ "big" just to mention an example. Games where you can win some decent 3-figure prices, if you run deep, games with a reasonable structure and games with a somewhat higher quality of play.

If the choise is 3), then its time to go to work. Decide on a reasonable starting bankroll like 100$, pick one game format, and learn to play 3-4 tables at a time. The reasonable options for someone attempting to become a winning poker player and looking to build a track record and a bankroll are:

* Cash games

* Single table SnGs (6-9 man)

* Multi table SnGs (45-180 man)

I assume, cash games dont interest OP, since he is playing tournaments. And then my pick on PokerStars would be the 1$ 45 man multi table SnG. This has way less rake than the 1,5$ 6-9 mans, and its also a somewhat simpler game to learn with less short handed play and less extreme ICM implications.

And then simply grind on. Learn to play 3-4 tables at the same time and make a typical session contain 5-10 of these 45 mans. Stop worrying about the outcome of individual hands or sessions and play at least 500, before you really begin to evaluate your results or even consider playing something else.