How bad is the bot issue on 888?

puzzlefish

puzzlefish

🙉 🙈 🙊 student of the donk arts
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 18, 2018
Total posts
4,429
Awards
3
CA
Chips
275
So recently 888 announced that a bunch of bots were banned and money (~$100K) returned to thousands of affected players (O4K).

Anyone playing a lot on 888 have any comments on how bad it really is with the bots? I myself am finding some weird activity on the SNAP tables, where player volume suddenly spikes to double the normal amount and a bunch of players start making suspect plays where they hit-and-run (rat holding) when they have no business being in a particular hand.
 
Normino

Normino

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 4, 2020
Total posts
1,231
Awards
2
Chips
173
ive been playing the 10cent snaps gone up 5 levels in about a month without losing anymoney i've been staying within the same dollar amount.. the only thing i hate about it is the 40 50 point long in daily points..
 
C

CourtJester

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 22, 2021
Total posts
99
Chips
0
I don't play on 888, but I've seen similar announcements on other sites. I do wonder though - For every bot that gets caught, how many got away with it?
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
13,265
Awards
1
Chips
262
Maybe they were mostly operating in the cash games? I play tournaments, and I have not noticed anything, which made me suspect bot activity, nor have I recieved a refund. It is difficult to spot bots though, because they will basically just look and play like good regulars.
 
puzzlefish

puzzlefish

🙉 🙈 🙊 student of the donk arts
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 18, 2018
Total posts
4,429
Awards
3
CA
Chips
275
Maybe they were mostly operating in the cash games? I play tournaments, and I have not noticed anything, which made me suspect bot activity, nor have I recieved a refund. It is difficult to spot bots though, because they will basically just look and play like good regulars.

I think cash games make the most sense, since it would allow bots a chance to share hole cards if they are all from the same ring sitting at the same table. I could see it happening in tournaments as well but maybe this would look more like a barrage of bot accounts farming freerolls and then dumping their money back to a central account.

Of course 888 isn't going to give any details.
 
puzzlefish

puzzlefish

🙉 🙈 🙊 student of the donk arts
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 18, 2018
Total posts
4,429
Awards
3
CA
Chips
275
I don't play on 888, but I've seen similar announcements on other sites. I do wonder though - For every bot that gets caught, how many got away with it?
And how many bots replace the ones that are found?
 
Chebchoub

Chebchoub

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Feb 21, 2019
Total posts
2,258
Awards
2
MA
Chips
159
I didn't notice anything, and I have no idea what you said, the problem is very serious, not only for 888poker but even for other sites, because 888poker is not a simple site, it's one of the biggest poker sites, I don't know how he can get into such a problem.
 
puzzlefish

puzzlefish

🙉 🙈 🙊 student of the donk arts
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 18, 2018
Total posts
4,429
Awards
3
CA
Chips
275
Fundiver, how come your recent post disappeared in here?
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
13,265
Awards
1
Chips
262
I think cash games make the most sense, since it would allow bots a chance to share hole cards if they are all from the same ring sitting at the same table. I could see it happening in tournaments as well but maybe this would look more like a barrage of bot accounts farming freerolls and then dumping their money back to a central account.

Its certainly a very plausible theory, that the 80 bot accounts were part of some sort of "ring". As you know, I have recently discovered a huge collusion / multiaccounting ring, which has specialised in making late registration in satellite tournaments close prematurely, so that the satellite will offer a massive overlay. And if the player(s) behind this can get away with it, then someone can also open a bunch of accounts and employ bots to play from them.

Also thinking about it sites probably use some sort of automatic collusion detection, which will sound an alarm, if the same players are always entering the same cash tables or tournaments. And the way to fool that system would be to make your "ring" very large, so that the same accounts dont sit together very often. This also makes it almost impossible for other players to spot the irregularity.

I am really speculating now, but this could also be the reason, why the "satellite ring" play 10c or 1$ BLAST tournaments. This put them against other players not being part of the "ring" and might serve the purpose of further fooling collusion detection. Since these events only take 2 minutes, they are by far the fastest way of playing some extra games. It sure seems like, 888 Pokers security team has some work to do, and banning those 80 bot accounts might only be the start rather than the end.
 
puzzlefish

puzzlefish

🙉 🙈 🙊 student of the donk arts
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 18, 2018
Total posts
4,429
Awards
3
CA
Chips
275
I deleted it but posted the above post instead, which is an edited version.

Ok, I see that you expanded on some points and made it more politically correct regarding 888's efforts at security.
 
dino

dino

10 cevapcici = 0 stress
Community Guide
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Total posts
6,534
Awards
3
DE
Chips
247
if you look through some of my post, I post a screenshots of some guys/bots on 888 and those guys/bots for playing over 40 hrs straight on the tables.
Now, ask yourself how is that possible.
:)
Human can't sit and play for 40 hrs or more straight, no way.
I send those screenshots to them to, and they removed some of those accounts.
But, IMHO they are bots on 888 as a plaque.
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

Fully Tilted
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
25,599
Awards
6
CA
Chips
968
I don't notice any. I don't play on there that often but one thing I do notice on there is that the level of play is much weaker than most other sites. ie. on cash tables (especially SNAP) at 5nl & 10nl tables, over half of the players are playing with less than 100bb.... and the game does not play ANYTHING like partypoker or Stars. fwiw, I played on Partypoker quite awhile back when they were having a problem with BOTS on their cash tables and as fundiver mentioned, they typically play like good regs. How did I know 100% for certain they were BOTS? Well I had my suspicions (won't go into details here) but was confirmed when I received refunds.
 
puzzlefish

puzzlefish

🙉 🙈 🙊 student of the donk arts
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 18, 2018
Total posts
4,429
Awards
3
CA
Chips
275
I think your fears are exaggerated. Don't think too much about it.
Yeah I highly doubt that when a site is publicizing bot bans.

Another thing I am noticing on 888, is that players who I mark as bots don't last very long on the site. About 90% of the ones that I mark are gone within 2-3 days and I never see them again. I mark about 4-5 every day. Almost all seem to play exclusively $0.1 and $1 BLASTs all day when they are not on the cash tables. Some of that may be from gift drops, but it can't be all of it.

Maybe out of 10 marked players, I will see 2 of them again. Average of 3 new bots marked per day, about 1100 bots a year.
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
13,265
Awards
1
Chips
262
Almost all seem to play exclusively $0.1 and $1 BLASTs all day when they are not on the cash tables. Some of that may be from gift drops, but it can't be all of it.

I am really curious as to why, someone cheating by using bot software is also playing these BLAST games? They are surely unbeatable games, since you only get two minutes of regular play, before its forced all-in. But I have seen the same pattern with the "satellite ring", so there must be something, they are getting out of it.
 
P

PPT

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 13, 2021
Total posts
116
Chips
0
I played a tournament for a $33 tournament just after joining 888 ($5.50 buy in) and I was convinced at the time I was playing against bots. Just over the minimum players joined, joining right before the time expired including myself - I'm guessing the bots didn't intend for me to be there lol. All the opposing players had the same flag (Ukraine's).

First two hands the opposing players shoved all in, some with absurd hands (64 for one of them, queen high for most) ending up with enough players eliminated that it flashed that we were close to the payout and late registration closed prematurely less than about a minute into the tournament starting with the minimum number of players.

At first I was happy about this as we'd ended up at the bubble with me left in the final 3, but then I quickly twigged that the other two players were clearly working together and conspiring against me. Whenever one of the other two went low in chips the other one would if I wasn't in the next hand raise fold sending chips over to the other player. It wouldn't surprise me if card data was being shared giving it an edge as well as being funny with chips, until eventually I finished third.

First hand: Replay this hand on CardsChat

Second hand: Replay this hand on CardsChat
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
13,265
Awards
1
Chips
262
I played a tournament for a $33 tournament just after joining 888 ($5.50 buy in) and I was convinced at the time I was playing against bots. Just over the minimum players joined, joining right before the time expired including myself - I'm guessing the bots didn't intend for me to be there lol. All the opposing players had the same flag (Ukraine's).

First two hands the opposing players shoved all in, some with absurd hands (64 for one of them, queen high for most) ending up with enough players eliminated that it flashed that we were close to the payout and late registration closed prematurely less than about a minute into the tournament starting with the minimum number of players.

At first I was happy about this as we'd ended up at the bubble with me left in the final 3, but then I quickly twigged that the other two players were clearly working together and conspiring against me. Whenever one of the other two went low in chips the other one would if I wasn't in the next hand raise fold sending chips over to the other player. It wouldn't surprise me if card data was being shared giving it an edge as well as being funny with chips, until eventually I finished third.

This is the group of accounts, that I refer to as the "satellite ring", and which I reported to 888 Poker in their support thread some weeks ago. As you say, their "trick" is to make late registration close prematurely, so that the satellite run with a big overlay. That obviously require collusion either by the partipicating players agreeing to move all in with random hands and then later share their profit. Or by someone controlling all the accounts themselfes, so they dont care, which account win or lose.

This has nothing to do with botting however. A bot is a computer program playing poker. But if people can get away with multiaccounting, that obviously also open the door for them to let bots play from their many accounts, and to let the bots collude on for instance cash tables. So its certainly possible, that this ring of accounts could be involved in that kind of cheating as well, or that someone else could be running a bot ring.

For the record you have shared the same hand twice, but its still pretty obvious for me, what happened. Apparently they failed to notice, that 7 players had entered rather than 6, and thats why it took 2 hands to make late registration close. Normally they do it in just one hand, where 3 players move all in, and then 2 of them bust. As you say, this is also advantageous for the other players in the satellite. Except for the fact, that they then have to play against a "team", who have no incentive to bust each other, and who can also share information about hole cards.

Even so last time I played with them, I actually managed to win a ticket. What happened was, another player woke up with KK in the first hand, so he won a 4-way all in and busted all 3 colluding accounts. One of them then rebought, but since they both had only the starting stack, I was actually able to outlast both of them, so that they won none of the two tickets. The player with KK won one ticket, and I won the other one.

It was however rather obvious, that they colluded against me. They never played a hand against each other, and they never played against the chip leader either, basically hoping for me to bust against the chip leader, so that they had secured one of the tickets. And of course collusion is not acceptable, so I hope, 888 Poker will take action against this group of accounts soon, and also take steps to make multiaccounting more difficult.
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

Fully Tilted
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
25,599
Awards
6
CA
Chips
968
Yeah I highly doubt that when a site is publicizing bot bans.

Another thing I am noticing on 888, is that players who I mark as bots don't last very long on the site. About 90% of the ones that I mark are gone within 2-3 days and I never see them again. I mark about 4-5 every day. Almost all seem to play exclusively $0.1 and $1 BLASTs all day when they are not on the cash tables. Some of that may be from gift drops, but it can't be all of it.

Maybe out of 10 marked players, I will see 2 of them again. Average of 3 new bots marked per day, about 1100 bots a year.


The players you're referring to as seeing for only a couple of days.... it couldn't be that they actually won the tickets for those games... could it? I mean anyone who'd choose to play in those games deserves to lose. (how does one see players and mark them in those games if one isn't in them as well?).

Instead you come to the conclusion that this is equal to 1,100 bots a year LOL.
 
puzzlefish

puzzlefish

🙉 🙈 🙊 student of the donk arts
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 18, 2018
Total posts
4,429
Awards
3
CA
Chips
275
I am really curious as to why, someone cheating by using bot software is also playing these BLAST games? They are surely unbeatable games, since you only get two minutes of regular play, before its forced all-in. But I have seen the same pattern with the "satellite ring", so there must be something, they are getting out of it.
I think one reason could be to throw off stat tracking, because they are super fast games and like you said unbeatable. But another reason is that 888 spams tickets to these games through gift drops. 888 wants players on this game mode for some reason. I play them myself instead of doing a $0.10 satellite for example, because it is over quickly for a low value ticket and I can stick to the cash tables. The difference is I come back to the cash tables whereas they disappear.
 
puzzlefish

puzzlefish

🙉 🙈 🙊 student of the donk arts
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 18, 2018
Total posts
4,429
Awards
3
CA
Chips
275
This is the group of accounts, that I refer to as the "satellite ring", and which I reported to 888 Poker in their support thread some weeks ago. As you say, their "trick" is to make late registration close prematurely, so that the satellite run with a big overlay. That obviously require collusion either by the partipicating players agreeing to move all in with random hands and then later share their profit. Or by someone controlling all the accounts themselfes, so they dont care, which account win or lose.

This has nothing to do with botting however. A bot is a computer program playing poker. But if people can get away with multiaccounting, that obviously also open the door for them to let bots play from their many accounts, and to let the bots collude on for instance cash tables. So its certainly possible, that this ring of accounts could be involved in that kind of cheating as well, or that someone else could be running a bot ring.

For the record you have shared the same hand twice, but its still pretty obvious for me, what happened. Apparently they failed to notice, that 7 players had entered rather than 6, and thats why it took 2 hands to make late registration close. Normally they do it in just one hand, where 3 players move all in, and then 2 of them bust. As you say, this is also advantageous for the other players in the satellite. Except for the fact, that they then have to play against a "team", who have no incentive to bust each other, and who can also share information about hole cards.

Even so last time I played with them, I actually managed to win a ticket. What happened was, another player woke up with KK in the first hand, so he won a 4-way all in and busted all 3 colluding accounts. One of them then rebought, but since they both had only the starting stack, I was actually able to outlast both of them, so that they won none of the two tickets. The player with KK won one ticket, and I won the other one.

It was however rather obvious, that they colluded against me. They never played a hand against each other, and they never played against the chip leader either, basically hoping for me to bust against the chip leader, so that they had secured one of the tickets. And of course collusion is not acceptable, so I hope, 888 Poker will take action against this group of accounts soon, and also take steps to make multiaccounting more difficult.
Did you forward your info to 888's operations email? I don't think the support guy was going to do it for you.
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
13,265
Awards
1
Chips
262
I think one reason could be to throw off stat tracking, because they are super fast games and like you said unbeatable. But another reason is that 888 spams tickets to these games through gift drops. 888 wants players on this game mode for some reason. I play them myself instead of doing a $0.10 satellite for example, because it is over quickly for a low value ticket and I can stick to the cash tables. The difference is I come back to the cash tables whereas they disappear.

Yeah this makes sense. Getting those daily "freebees" as well as the sign-up bonus might even have been the original motive for someone to open a bunch of accounts. I think, its way more likely, that it is one or at most a few players behind the satellite trick rather than a massive group of 100+ players, who need to arrange everything between them. Basically all, someone need to pull this off, is 4-5 different gadgets to play from and 4-5 different IP adresses, which I guess can be easily achieved using VPN.

Did you forward your info to 888's operations email? I don't think the support guy was going to do it for you.


Yes I did. They have not replied me though, so I dont know, if someone has even read my email. If they did, they have not taken swift action on it, since the suspect accounts are still playing.
 
milka1605

milka1605

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 1, 2014
Total posts
2,183
Awards
2
Chips
104
Bots will always play as solo players. They cannot play in collusion with each other, and they only sit at tables with cash.
 
888 Reviews: Deutsch | Français | Nederlands | Italiano | Dansk | 888 Casino | 888 Casino Deutsch | Português | Español | Svenska | 888 Mobile | Deutsch Mobil
Top