pigpen02
Legend
Silver Level
One of Chris Ferguson's rules is to quit if his stack gets bigger than 10% of his bankroll. This is not consistent with those who say "stay for x amount of time".
KMC1828
Legend
Silver Level
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pigpen02
Legend
Silver Level
I kind of assumed that was a given. Perhaps I did not realize standing up immediately meant even before the BB got to you.:icon_porc
RammerJammer
Visionary
Silver Level
im·me·di·ate·ly [i-mee-dee-it-lee] –adverb 1. without lapse of time; without delay; instantly; at once :listen:
Mrlova
Rock Star
Silver Level
Online you see this a lot and honestly if your playing online I say its not bad etiquette. So many people use this and online there is no need to remmember how people play so its not as big of a deal. In live poker yes this is extremely bad ettiquete and the better players will remember your face and probally will cause you trouble in the future
J
jeffred1111
Visionary
Silver Level
OP is talking about 5/10 PLO, not micros where nobody tries to get a solid read on anybody for the future since there's an endless stream of faces. These guys log in many thousands hands a months against the same opponents and often datamine to gain and edge, so yeah, they will remember you if you pull this off.
Going south is despicable. Why do something online that would have you spit on or at least not invited anymore in a live game?
J
joeeagles
Legend
Silver Level
If you're playing PLO this above is the real and only reason you shouldn't hit and run, because the pool of players isn't exactly very large at 5/10 and in the long run it will hurt you because you can be sure they will remember.
I say its the only reason not because I don't believe in etiquette, but because online is full of these players, many of them are actually of the variety that don't even wait for their BB. A few months ago when I started playing real money this type of behavior would make me upset, but it no longer does. I actually find it funny now when after taking down a pot they don't even stay to look at the next hand their dealt. Part of the reason why I don't care is that I play holdem so usually the player that leaves gets replaced quickly. Of course you would like a chance to get your money back against the same player (cause in many instances its a donk that got you on a bad beat) but there is nothing you can do.
Having been a victim of this many times, I understand the message some of the posters here are trying to deliver but online its pointless to try and teach etiquette to the large mass of lowlifers that populate these games. It's like preaching in a desert. Just look at what happens when people can't get a password for a freeroll. Some of the common sense table non written rules listed by Rammer Jammer that constantly get broken are, to a certain extent, even worse than hitting and running.
However, all that I said above applies mostly to low limits. Even if I haven't played high limits I'm quite sure that the higher you go the more it will resemble B&M type of environment, therefore hitting and running should not be a part of your repertoire. Not to mention that the pool is considerably smaller, and if you do this consistently you might struggle to get action. Occasionally I watch high limit limit games and I've noticed how players with a big stack sit out, leaving the money on the table and not banking it, and then later on sit in again and play.
I would suggest, since you play PLO 5/10, not to repeat this type of behaviour because in the long run it will damage you. What makes it worse is that the likelyhood of your opponents, in those levels, pulling this to you is much smaller compared to the lower limits. Had this been at a $0.25/$0.50 table I would have told you to don't even bother answering the guy that was berating you, since at those stakes the hit and run is pretty routine. The fact its low stakes doesn't make it right, but you'll be a victim of it so many times that you won't lose your sleep for (incorrectly) doing it.
D
DP_Machine
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Is the hit and run strategy considered bad ettiquette?
Wow, this has been a really interesting discussion. I agree with some points on both sides and it makes me cringe as I'm starting to question some of things that I follow.
However, I for one am not a fan of those who hit-and-run. Yet, I see it, understand why players do it and just try to get over it and focus on whose left on the table. Yeah, there is less money on the table (including money that used to be yours) but I just keep recalling one of Caro's rule stating something along the lines that once money is on the table, it doesn't belong to anyone...it's on the table or it's in the pot and it doesn't belong to anyone until they cash out.
Plus, I know it's a different game, online and real-life but I treat it the same. Regardless if I'm playing online (PokerRoom, UB, FTP, etc..) or in a B&M Casino near where I live (Toronto), if I've taken down a large pot, I stick around for at least one more pass of the button, maybe even more if I think that it's a good table and similar opportunities to pick up some more large pots present themselves. Am I worried about losing the money I've earned? Yes, but there's always a risk/gamble factor in the game, no matter all the odds calculations one player may do - it's part of the game - you have to put the chips forward to have a shot at getting more.
I've come up through learning first in real-life, learn more through online play and then even more as a part-time dealer watching different types of players and styles including hit-and-run. So, perhaps you can see where I'm coming from as well and why. Good luck on the tables and thanks for the discussion. Cheers
Wow, this has been a really interesting discussion. I agree with some points on both sides and it makes me cringe as I'm starting to question some of things that I follow.
However, I for one am not a fan of those who hit-and-run. Yet, I see it, understand why players do it and just try to get over it and focus on whose left on the table. Yeah, there is less money on the table (including money that used to be yours) but I just keep recalling one of Caro's rule stating something along the lines that once money is on the table, it doesn't belong to anyone...it's on the table or it's in the pot and it doesn't belong to anyone until they cash out.
Plus, I know it's a different game, online and real-life but I treat it the same. Regardless if I'm playing online (PokerRoom, UB, FTP, etc..) or in a B&M Casino near where I live (Toronto), if I've taken down a large pot, I stick around for at least one more pass of the button, maybe even more if I think that it's a good table and similar opportunities to pick up some more large pots present themselves. Am I worried about losing the money I've earned? Yes, but there's always a risk/gamble factor in the game, no matter all the odds calculations one player may do - it's part of the game - you have to put the chips forward to have a shot at getting more.
I've come up through learning first in real-life, learn more through online play and then even more as a part-time dealer watching different types of players and styles including hit-and-run. So, perhaps you can see where I'm coming from as well and why. Good luck on the tables and thanks for the discussion. Cheers
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
That's the other thing I guess - if you're hit and running, you're not really showing a great deal of confidence in your own playing ability. Surely having a bigger stack will give you a better chance to keep winning chips? If it puts you above the maximum buy-in for the table, you've got an instant advantage over anyone new that sits down.
tonymaclennan
Rock Star
Silver Level
If you hit big then stay at the table - you will find players show more respect to your bets and raises! Like yesterday, I went to 2 5/10 table and built up a roll of about $50/$60 at each table and found people were respecting my bets more allowing me to get away with more!
The only way I will leave the table straight away after hitting big is if I donk chips as you will loose table respect!
The only way I will leave the table straight away after hitting big is if I donk chips as you will loose table respect!
1
1SvEnGaLi
Rising Star
Bronze Level
I personally wouldnt wait, and I never understood why you would.
Unless you are stupid your not going to give them a chance to win it back, that would just be silly.
They can piss and moan all they want, I would too, but only b/c I lost that much to a stupid player who shouldnt have been in the hand in the first place. Not b/c they wouldnt give it back....
Unless you are stupid your not going to give them a chance to win it back, that would just be silly.
They can piss and moan all they want, I would too, but only b/c I lost that much to a stupid player who shouldnt have been in the hand in the first place. Not b/c they wouldnt give it back....
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
See, this is what I don't understand: what you're effectively saying is that you don't think you're capable of using what you've won already to win even more.
Surely if you were good enough to win one big lump of cash from a table, you're good enough to win another one. Why does it have to be inevitable that you end up giving them their money back if you stay at the table?
Maybe it's a cash game player thing that I'll never understand because I'm a tournament hack?
RammerJammer
Visionary
Silver Level
I couldn't agree with you more, Oz. When I'm at a table and someone hits a big pot and takes off, the first thing that crosses my mind is, "Well, I guess he figures that's as good as it gets, so he better take off before he gives it all back." And if all the defenders of the hit-and-run here in this thread were honest, that's exactly what's going through their minds, too, when they bolt the table. It's just another mark of the donk, in my book. You're not good enough to sustain your winnings, and you know it. Now that you've pulled the quick vanishing act, so does everyone else.
pigpen02
Legend
Silver Level
Here is a thought thread: I am playing with donks and just hit it lucky. If I stay around they are going to go all in again with 72 and take my winnings back. I can't rat-hole, but if I leave and start another table with my original stack, I have put the winnings in the bank. There are PLENTY of on-line tables.
RammerJammer
Visionary
Silver Level
If you're "playing with donks" and "just hit it lucky", I would take a long, hard look in the mirror. Why would you have to get lucky to drag a pot from donks? You can't take candy from babies? A table full of donks is a real poker player's dream! You don't leave it, you exploit it.
The kryptonite for the donks, and the key to snowballing that "lucky" pot, is to sit tight, play tight, don't put any moves on those upon whom they're wasted, wait for the big hand, and enjoy the turkey shoot. If the cards go ice cold on you, and you can't find a spot to play in three or four orbits, move on.
The kryptonite for the donks, and the key to snowballing that "lucky" pot, is to sit tight, play tight, don't put any moves on those upon whom they're wasted, wait for the big hand, and enjoy the turkey shoot. If the cards go ice cold on you, and you can't find a spot to play in three or four orbits, move on.
T
tranqxility
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I didn't exactly hit and run, but I decided to play PLO .25/.50 for about an hour or so to waste time before I head off to bed. Well, after sitting I got a low wrap first hand and I hit my straight, turn made a boat, river made my opponents flush and he sent $20 my way. Two hands later I had AAJT-ds... same opponent had KK in hand and wanted me heads up... so there came the rest of his $30 stack. So I was sitting with over $70 after 3 hands.
I decided it was time for me to leave.
I decided it was time for me to leave.
Dorkus Malorkus
HELLO INTERNET
Silver Level
The only reason hit-and-running could be +EV is if you're a bad deepstack player. Otherwise, whether you hit and run 50 times over 5 hours or stay at a table for 5 hours at a time, your EV will be almost completely unchanged (assuming external factors such as quality of opponent and tiredness remain constant).
The thing is, you want to be playing deepstacked against bad players who themselves have deep stacks, for the obvious reason that you're playing for more money when playing for stacks, and when playing bad players you're more likely to be ahead than not.
If you're hit-and-running, I wouldn't worry too much about etiquette (and although I agree with people who have said it's an asshole-ish move I'm not going to lecture anyone, heh), and worry more about exactly why you're hit-and-running. Do you find yourself uncomfortable with such a big stack after doubling up? Maybe you're playing under-bankrolled. Do you not know how to play with >200BB effective stacks? Read up on deepstack theory.
The thing is, you want to be playing deepstacked against bad players who themselves have deep stacks, for the obvious reason that you're playing for more money when playing for stacks, and when playing bad players you're more likely to be ahead than not.
If you're hit-and-running, I wouldn't worry too much about etiquette (and although I agree with people who have said it's an asshole-ish move I'm not going to lecture anyone, heh), and worry more about exactly why you're hit-and-running. Do you find yourself uncomfortable with such a big stack after doubling up? Maybe you're playing under-bankrolled. Do you not know how to play with >200BB effective stacks? Read up on deepstack theory.
1
1SvEnGaLi
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Its not that you dont think you can win more, its odds. kinda like NO WHAMMY NO WHAMMY STOP!!! Odds are the more hands that you win in a row the closer you are to a losing streak.
So you stayed in to win more money right, then you get pocket aces (since you are only playing good hands), the person in front of you goes all in... with say sevens... you call, two sevens flop and your done for. now sure, you had more than they did and it didnt take you down to bad but you lost.... sometimes you dont have control over it, and if you think you do you havent played enough poker.
1
1SvEnGaLi
Rising Star
Bronze Level
That is great and all, but what if you are in a tourney and can't leave the table?
T
TurnipHead
Rock Star
Silver Level
Too many (among them decent players) here seem to be saying "Thou shalt not hit and run."
This, I think is coming from those who are looking at "the problem" in the light of long-term, serious cash game poker sessions.
For me, there are at least 3 times when the hit and run strategy is perfectly acceptable:
1) When your all-in aggressive play wipes out the stacks of all the fish/bad players - who then leave the table - and you have stayed long enough to realise that the other players are solid.
2) When you realise 100% that you are playing badly (usually when you are tired) and are gambling away some loose change at the micro/low-limit tables.
3) Precisely because you believe that you are out of your depth, just got frustrated and then lucky and really really shouldn't have just gone all-in with those pair of 3s in middle position pre-flop.
This, I think is coming from those who are looking at "the problem" in the light of long-term, serious cash game poker sessions.
For me, there are at least 3 times when the hit and run strategy is perfectly acceptable:
1) When your all-in aggressive play wipes out the stacks of all the fish/bad players - who then leave the table - and you have stayed long enough to realise that the other players are solid.
2) When you realise 100% that you are playing badly (usually when you are tired) and are gambling away some loose change at the micro/low-limit tables.
3) Precisely because you believe that you are out of your depth, just got frustrated and then lucky and really really shouldn't have just gone all-in with those pair of 3s in middle position pre-flop.
stormswa
Legend
Silver Level
I usually dont hit and run but if you do I see no problem with it, I dont pay attention to people names long enough to know who does it and hell I got pokertracker to keep track of the important stuff about the players anyway.
so I did hit in run in a 1/2 game today and a .25/.50 game, both times I doubled up and left buying in at the bare minimum of $10 and $40 respectivly. I have been trying the shortstack strategy and see how it goes, I could buy in deeper but like I said was trying something. If someone wants to take it personal that is their problem. I know I could care less if someone hits and runs on me, I will either search them out or just forget about it. There are tons of players online why get mad about one that hits and runs?
so I did hit in run in a 1/2 game today and a .25/.50 game, both times I doubled up and left buying in at the bare minimum of $10 and $40 respectivly. I have been trying the shortstack strategy and see how it goes, I could buy in deeper but like I said was trying something. If someone wants to take it personal that is their problem. I know I could care less if someone hits and runs on me, I will either search them out or just forget about it. There are tons of players online why get mad about one that hits and runs?
J
jeffred1111
Visionary
Silver Level
Leaving when all the bad players have no more money and all that is left are rocks is not hit and run, it's good table selection. Leaving when you are tired and feel that you are not your peak is also good discipline/table selection (mybe you'll just switch game or go to bed).
Leaving because you are afraid of losing the big pot you just took down is cowardly and disrespectful, especially at highish stakes (5/10 PLO). At a limit table (unless nosebleed HU), it's not much of a hassle since villain will get 7-8BB max from you if he wins while he'll be more likely to stay if he is losing and will donate way more than that.
I agree that at micros, plenty of fish to go around so why bother. And people tend to play for shorter amounts of time too, so maybe they're not really hit and running on you.
Leaving because you are afraid of losing the big pot you just took down is cowardly and disrespectful, especially at highish stakes (5/10 PLO). At a limit table (unless nosebleed HU), it's not much of a hassle since villain will get 7-8BB max from you if he wins while he'll be more likely to stay if he is losing and will donate way more than that.
I agree that at micros, plenty of fish to go around so why bother. And people tend to play for shorter amounts of time too, so maybe they're not really hit and running on you.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Sorry, but this makes no sense. Your pocket aces have the same odds of winning regardless of what happened on the last hand: odds don't have an inbuilt sense of fairness and equality. What you've said is the equivalent of "the roulette ball is going to land on black next, because it landed on red last time"
If you hang around are you going to get sucked out on some of the time? Of course. But it's no more or less likely just because you took a big pot off someone on the previous orbit.