Is the hit and run strategy considered bad etiquette?

R

rStormChaser

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I was playing 5/10 pot limit omaha the other day where i won a 1.2k pot after putting all my money on the flop and beating my opponent with a higher two pair. After winning the pot i quickly sat out, then the guy started berating me and saying that it was bad etuiqette to use the hit n run tactic, i was just wondering if this is true or not?

Isnt that the whole point of cash games, to make a profit and leave while your up?
 
Egon Towst

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Yes, it is considered bad etiquette. Probably doesn`t matter much in an online game, since you may never meet the other players again anyway. Best avoided in a live game, though, if you want to be welcome at that card room another day.

Simplest solution, whether live or online, is to sit in for another round of blinds before you stand up. During that time, fold anything except AA, KK, or QQ. Then, when you stand up, if the others think about it at all they will assume you are leaving because you are card-dead and bored, rather than because you are grabbing their money and running.
 
beardyian

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The best way to explain it is - how would you feel if it was your money that just went from the table :confused:

You would at least want the chance of winning some of it back - even if the player wasnt doing much himself.
 
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rStormChaser

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If my money left the table straight away i would feel pretty unhappy, but thats my whole point, not to let him or any one else win it back, and as egon said you rarely play these players again let alone meet them in real life , so i couldnt care less if i took his money. But in a live situation i would never do this, if i had won a huge pot i would at least play for another half hour or so, folding most of my hands and tightening up, and then i would leave so the other players cant peg me as a person who is just using that tactic.
 
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njpokerhoney

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I cannot stand either the hit & run or the hit & sit. However, if I just won a $1200 pot- I''d leave the room like it was on fire.

seriously, though- turn your chat off and let the guy vent.
 
smd173

smd173

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Screw etiquette. Lots of other people would do it to you. There is no poker etiquette board that will besmirch your name because you won a pot and left.

People do alot of things that are bad etiquette that I consider far worse than a smash and grab. Like Hellmuth's tirades and Gold's table talk.

Although live, it would be best to play another round or two.
 
rainsoaked

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Screw etiquette? That makes me sad. Why do we strive for civil conversation here if cyber life and real life have such vastly different rules? Just because we *can* behave with some measure of impunity online doesn't necessarily make it ok (imvho). We're each free to choose our own way, though. I just worry that if we say screw etiquette, how long til we're saying screw ethics? Not saying hit n run is unethical. I don't believe it is. Don't think it's very sporting, but that's just me. I guess I just don't get where the difference in behavior in live vs online comes from. I'm the same everywhere. But again, that's just me and I don't mean to imply that everyone should make the same choice. We're free to do as we please. Didn't mean to get preachy. Or off topic. Just a sticky subject for me. Sorry. Carry on....
 
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alan1983

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You have no obligation to stay, simple as that.

Theres plenty of money online for him 2 win his money back, Its not like those dollars have his name on em.
 
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TurnipHead

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100% with smd on this one. For online play - the whole point of ring games is to win the other players' money by any means within the rules.

Unless the software is designed to force you to stay for a set period of time then Hit & Run, in my book, is all part of the strategy of online poker.

Staying a bit longer to give others the chance of winning their money back!!!??? What are we? Playing with five-year olds??
 
USFDoh

USFDoh

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Live - sit for another round of blinds, giving the appearance of letting them win some $$ back. Maybe even limp a hand or two.

On-line - That's what the X in the uper right corner of the window is for! ;)
 
Egon Towst

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Screw etiquette? That makes me sad. Why do we strive for civil conversation here if cyber life and real life have such vastly different rules? Just because we *can* behave with some measure of impunity online doesn't necessarily make it ok (imvho). We're each free to choose our own way, though. I just worry that if we say screw etiquette, how long til we're saying screw ethics?

I concur.
 
smd173

smd173

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Screw etiquette? That makes me sad. Why do we strive for civil conversation here if cyber life and real life have such vastly different rules? Just because we *can* behave with some measure of impunity online doesn't necessarily make it ok (imvho).

I didn't think your post was preachy at all, just adding to the conversation. My wording of "Screw etiquette" was a bit off base overall, but I meant it more in terms of the direct question of whether leaving after winning a big pot was bad etiquette. If you look at the rest of my post, I point out other instances where I consider certain behaviors to be worse. I'm not saying that their should be civil unrest either online or live.

The difference in online vs live should be apparent. If you call someone a moron/idiot online, there isn't much they can do about it except report you to the site which would ban your chat. If you say that live to the wrong person, you might wind up on the ground or banned from the casino (if it gets really heated).

In regards to winning a big pot, why should the person be given an opportunity to win it back as a rule of etiquette? Say we reload and try to win it back and fail again, do we then keep the person who won twice tied to the table for a triple or nothing?
 
Kenzie 96

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Well, screw etiquette is not what I mean to support, civility is one of CCs selling points, but one is under no obligation to play, sit out or leave, other than what they deem to be in their own best interest.
 
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lmille4574

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I've seen some people do it on ftp. they come in take a large pot and leave. I prefer to stick around and see if i can take down a few more. I usually go to a table with a certain amount then have and ending amount once that is reached I leave.
Gl
 
isaac

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if i had won a 1.2k pot i would go nuts and leave the table before the next hand started, so i agree with your hit and run for this one. since its online i think that it is ok
 
rainsoaked

rainsoaked

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I didn't think your post was preachy at all, just adding to the conversation. My wording of "Screw etiquette" was a bit off base overall, but I meant it more in terms of the direct question of whether leaving after winning a big pot was bad etiquette. If you look at the rest of my post, I point out other instances where I consider certain behaviors to be worse. I'm not saying that their should be civil unrest either online or live.

The difference in online vs live should be apparent. If you call someone a moron/idiot online, there isn't much they can do about it except report you to the site which would ban your chat. If you say that live to the wrong person, you might wind up on the ground or banned from the casino (if it gets really heated).

In regards to winning a big pot, why should the person be given an opportunity to win it back as a rule of etiquette? Say we reload and try to win it back and fail again, do we then keep the person who won twice tied to the table for a triple or nothing?
The difference in live and online *is* apparent. I'm just not a big fan of the not-much-they-can-do philosophy. But again, that's just my choice. About hit n run -- live or online -- it's certainly a players right to leave the table at any point. Maybe it depends on how the individual views the game as a whole when it comes to making that decision. To me, hanging around a bit after taking a big pot feels like good sportsmanship and is part of my view of the game. I understand there are plenty of folks who don't see it that way and that's fine too. So yeah, there's no obligation to stay. I just always got the impression that it's not highly thought of. Generally speaking.
 
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xfallen87x

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hit and run may be considered "wrong" because from what I have seen at least at a table where someone wins a big pot and leaves, everyone complains. the thing about that though is that everyone complains even if they weren't in the pot and the reason is is because the big winner just left with a bunch of chips and they dont get a chance to win it back, but i have been on the wrong end of that and the one who either lost or wasn't in the hand. i can't fault that person for leaving because they keep the money and i would do the same thing and have. maybe i am just ranting, sorry all
 
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bhanacik

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I am with SMD - there is no rule or law that mandates you sit there for another round of blinds!!! You've got to be kidding me - limp for a hand or two to allow them to win some money back!!! That is not why I play the game - to make the other players feel ok or to feel liked.

It's about the money and that's why it's called the bottom line.
 
RammerJammer

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Screw etiquette? That makes me sad. Why do we strive for civil conversation here if cyber life and real life have such vastly different rules?
Couldn't agree with you more, rain. Poker is poker, etiquette is etiquette. No one would jump up from a live table after a big pot, probably from fear of not even making it to the door, but hopefully because it's just poor form. But you see it all the time online. There's a whole list of common online offenses that players wouldn't dare try to pull at a live game, but they seem to think acceptable in an internet room. Here are my pet peeves:

1.) Rants and taunts. Someone takes a bad beat and goes on about it for fifteen minutes. Or some donkey sucks out a big hand and immediately pulls out the sarcastic "Thanks" and "LOL". Dweebs who would never say 'boo' to someone face-to-face across the table turn into tough guys in the safety of their anonymous dens. And here's a tip...observer chat is for saying hello to a friend at another table, not railbirding after you've been eliminated. Show some class and find another table.

2.) Dumping chips. Someone gets bored, or shortstacked, or entered a tournament they knew they didn't have time to complete. Instead of doing the correct thing, which is simply standing up and allowing their chips to blind out, they start going all in to purposely bust out. Forgive me, but I have a real problem with my opponents being gifted with someone's entire stack. Chip dumping will get you canned at a brick-&-mortar casino, but no one bats an eye at it online.

3.) Announcing pockets. Often goes hand-in-hand with #2. It's not enough for the unthinking clout to give his chips away. He also has to declare his all-ins pre-deal AND tell the table the rags he has in the hole. Another variation is folding and telling your cards while the hand is still in progress. I know this actually crosses the line between bad etiquette and outright rules violations, but it's rarely given a second thought in online play. In fact, the next time someone does it, try calling them on it. Not only will the offender not care, but the rest of the table will roast YOU for being a hardassed jerk! Unbelieveable.

4.) Chatting someone up when they're involved in a hand. Wait until they're idle before asking them how their favorite team is going to do this season, or whether they're in the big tourney later.

5.) Slow play. Yes, there's a clock, and yes, you are entitled by rule to every tick of it before taking action. But players who use it all up on every hand ruin the game for everyone else at the table and are just being rude. Save the time bank for truly difficult decisions, not whether you're even going to enter the pot. And I don't care if you're playing three other tables. If you can't keep up with the game play, close a couple of them.

6.) Playing like an idiot because it's "play money" or a freeroll. You either respect the game of poker or you don't. It really shouldn't matter what the environment is, you ought to have enough integrity to play it straight every time you sit down. Going all in four straight times with rags isn't funny, or cute, or "the way you play freerolls". The only place where that's common wisdom is in Donkey Land.

I think the biggest reason for the horrible table manners of this whole generation of poker players is that most of us learned how to play online, and online poker is our only point of reference. I hate to offer ignorance as a valid excuse, but it is probably the reason. They just don't know any better. Monkey see, monkey do.
 
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Egon Towst

Egon Towst

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I think the biggest reason for the horrible table manners of this whole generation of poker players is that most of us learned how to play online, and online poker is our only point of reference. I hate to offer ignorance as a valid excuse, but it is probably the reason. They just don't know any better. Monkey see, monkey do.

Valid point. I learned to play live and, although 99% of my play is online now, I still play the way I learned and wouldn`t consider doing any of the dumb tricks you mention.
 
Kenzie 96

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Couldn't agree with you more, rain. Poker is poker, etiquette is etiquette. No one would jump up from a live table after a big pot, probably from fear of not even making it to the door, but hopefully because it's just poor form. But you see it all the time online. There's a whole list of common online offenses that players wouldn't dare try to pull at a live game, but they seem to think acceptable in an internet room. Here are my pet peeves:

1.) Rants and taunts. Someone takes a bad beat and goes on about it for fifteen minutes. Or some donkey sucks out a big hand and immediately pulls out the sarcastic "Thanks" and "LOL". Dweebs who would never say 'boo' to someone face-to-face across the table turn into tough guys in the safety of their anonymous dens. And here's a tip...observer chat is for saying hello to a friend at another table, not railbirding after you've been eliminated. Show some class and find another table.

2.) Dumping chips. Someone gets bored, or shortstacked, or entered a tournament they knew they didn't have time to complete. Instead of doing the correct thing, which is simply standing up and allowing their chips to blind out, they start going all in to purposely bust out. Forgive me, but I have a real problem with my opponents being gifted with someone's entire stack. Chip dumping will get you canned at a brick-&-mortar casino, but no one bats an eye at it online.

3.) Announcing pockets. Often goes hand-in-hand with #2. It's not enough for the unthinking clout to give his chips away. He also has to declare his all-ins pre-deal AND tell the table the rags he has in the hole. Another variation is folding and telling your cards while the hand is still in progress. I know this actually crosses the line between bad etiquette and outright rules violations, but it's rarely given a second thought in online play. In fact, the next time someone does it, try calling them on it. Not only will the offender not care, but the rest of the table will roast YOU for being a hardassed jerk! Unbelieveable.

4.) Chatting someone up when they're involved in a hand. Wait until they're idle before asking them how their favorite team is going to do this season, or whether they're in the big tourney later.

5.) Slow play. Yes, there's a clock, and yes, you are entitled by rule to every tick of it before taking action. But players who use it all up on every hand ruin the game for everyone else at the table and are just being rude. Save the time bank for truly difficult decisions, not whether you're even going to enter the pot. And I don't care if you're playing three other tables. If you can't keep up with the game play, close a couple of them.

6.) Playing like an idiot because it's "play money" or a freeroll. You either respect the game of poker or you don't. It really shouldn't matter what the environment is, you ought to have enough integrity to play it straight every time you sit down. Going all in four straight times with rags isn't funny, or cute, or "the way you play freerolls". The only place where that's common wisdom is in Donkey Land.

I think the biggest reason for the horrible table manners of this whole generation of poker players is that most of us learned how to play online, and online poker is our only point of reference. I hate to offer ignorance as a valid excuse, but it is probably the reason. They just don't know any better. Monkey see, monkey do.



Very nice post RJ. +rep
 
Wonka22

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4.) Chatting someone up when they're involved in a hand. Wait until they're idle before asking them how their favorite team is going to do this season, or whether they're in the big tourney later.


I disagree with you here.....I've often asked kings?? or said to someone with a name like lionsfan....well at least if I lose you're a lions fan.

There are so few ways to get a read on someone online, acting relaxed by asking some silly question could make a person feel you're very comfortable with your all in.

I think it's just part of the "game".

I do agree with your other points, this one tho, live or online *I* don't really see it as bad ettiquette.

Hellmuth often will make stupid comments when someone is considering a big bet but will go crazy when it's HIS turn to make the big bet.
 
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RammerJammer

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Hellmuth often will make stupid comments when someone is considering a big bet but will go crazy when it's HIS turn to make the big bet.
Using Phil Hellmuth as an example in a discussion of poker etiquette is like using Atilla the Hun in a discusson of peaceful coexistence.:wink:
 
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J

jeffred1111

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Hm, you won a 1.2k pot and you are asking if hit and running is bad etiquette or not ? Seems strange since 5/10 PLO is overrun with hit and run artists and even at lower stakes, it is frown upon severly so you would have encountered a few of them and the comments left in the chat box before...

Anyway, yes it is bad etiquette and I don't recommend doing it at all since at the higher levels (or even at 5/10 PLO), people won't be willing to play you if they know you'll go south with their money. 5/10 PLO doens't have all that much different players and you see the same faces a lot, you'll get tagged and people will recognize you. Sit another round of blinds (or two) and then quit: hit and running all the time will become very -EV in the long run since people will try to run you over, deny you action, wich will eat at your winnings much more than 30$ out of a 1.2k pot.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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With regard to the hit and run strategy... should you really be thinking about it just in "well there's no rule against it" terms? I'm mostly a tournament / SnG player (both live and online) so it doesn't come up often for me, but I still think there's something more important to consider. And that is:

Every time you hit and run, you'll likely either make an enemy who'll gun for you next time they see you at the table, or you'll make an enemy who won't want to sit down next time they see you at the table. Neither is a good thing.

If it were me, I'd see staying at the table a little while longer after a big win as an investment in the future. The best thing that can ever happen to you is finding someone who's actually happy to come back for another go after you've taken all their money off them :)
 
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