gamblerhouse Pokerstars

[Pokerblitz]

Hi folks,

I just want to speak my thoughts out loud here and am curious about your thoughts as well.

Pokerstars changed into a gambler house
I have been playing poker on pokerstars for about 10 years now and I don't like the changes of the past years in any way.
By changes I mean that is is becoming a big gambler house instead of just a poker room. (that it used to be back in the days)

And by negative changes I mean:

• introduction of casino games
• introduction of sports bets
• introduction of spin&go's with lottery reward system (jackpot spin)
• introduction of lootboxes as a reward system
• introduction of the Deal Jackpot

Only positive thing I can say about it that it is attracting gambler type players that are exploitable.

Poker vs. casino games
Poker is a strategy game for me and I can keep decent bankroll management when playing. Casino games on the other hand are very addictive to me and changes my mental mindset, when I play slots, I keep playing until my bankroll is gone. (I guess this is the way that slot games are designed/ intended)
And by changing mindset I mainly mean that I see money differently when playing, When I play a $2 poker tournament and lose, that gives me a sad feeling, but when clicking the $2 wager on a slot machine with no win, I don't feel much. Also I mistake making money in the long run in poker vs. casino.
This change of mindset scares me a lot, so I decided to mail support and block casino games permanently which they did.

Online poker is rigged?
Ok, let's be clear here, I don't think online poker is rigged. But, the argument being that it makes no difference for the poker room whether a player wins or loses a hand in a cash game changes when you think of how slot machines work. What I mean by that is the chasing loses, expecting to win, or winning big and lose in the long run scenario's. A poker room can manipulate a player in this way, making poker more addictive (more like a slot machine) with the result of them spending more money.
(I know this is far fetched, but I'm curious on your thoughts on it)

My general problem is that I have the feeling that I am becoming more of a gambling player myself due to all these changes and stimuli. And the feeling I can't help that from happening since it is intended to be addictive, just something that is triggered in your brain and makes you an addict, I mean, I can't really stop that my brain works in a certain way (releasing addictive dopamines for instance)

 

[Collin Moshman]

Nice work messaging Stars and getting the casino games blocked

Of course they're a public company and looking to maximize profits. But they can still take things too far. Offering poker with a reasonable rake that everyone has a chance of winning in the short term, is a solid strategy. Trying to get everyone to put it on black in roulette seems less sustainable in the long run.

 

[williamsc99]

well friend, in my case, I just play poker and I flee from the other games, for the sake of principle. So for me everything is ok

 

[Risto234]

Pokerstars negative changes:

• introduction of casino games
• introduction of sports bets

Are these 2 changes really that bad then ?!? If yes then i guess i must be lucky(kind of) cause i haven't had single chance to try either of them in stars lol ...

 

[Pokerblitz]

[/LIST]

Are these 2 changes really that bad then ?!? If yes then i guess i must be lucky(kind of) cause i haven't had single chance to try either of them in stars lol ...

Well, I agree that these two are the lamest examples, they indicate the deviation from just being a poker room to becoming a casino. At the same time these add to the remark I made about the attraction of casino players, which is a positive development.

 

[Pokerblitz]

Nice work messaging Stars and getting the casino games blocked

Of course they're a public company and looking to maximize profits. But they can still take things too far. Offering poker with a reasonable rake that everyone has a chance of winning in the short term, is a solid strategy. Trying to get everyone to put it on black in roulette seems less sustainable in the long run.

Yes, blocking the casino was sadly necessary.

Do you consider the rake to be high on Pokerstars (compared to other rooms?)

I quickly looked at Pokerstars compared to ACR:

https://www.pokerstars.eu/poker/room/rake/Pokerstars rake table
ACR rake table

I guess I see what you mean, comparing the tables, huge difference for $1/$2 and up cash games, 2% or even 1% rake compared to 5% is huge.
(I just play micro's so I didn't notice this before, but thanks for mentioning )

 

[fundiver199]

The simple fact is, that the interest in online poker has been declining steadily since the Cris Moneymaker boom years, and Stars has also lost a lot of markets due to government intervention including the absolutely most important one, the US market.

So they needed to do something to attract more recreational or net depositing players to their site, and all those initiatives, which you mention, are part of that. And it has worked. There are more recreational players on Stars now, than there was before the changes, and this also benefit serious poker players, since it has made the poker games softer.

So I dont have a problem with any of this. What I do have somewhat of a problem with, is the numerous rake increases on Stars. For instance its not great, that a 5,5$ tournament on Stars in no longer 5$ for the price pool and 50c tournament fee, but only 4,9$ for the price pool and 60c tournament fee.

This is a 20% price hike and a legit reason for MTT players to try out other sites. On 888 for instance its still 5$ for the price pool and 50c for the tournament fee, so you are almost a little bit dumb, if you dont play the MTTs on 888 instead.

 

[Collin Moshman]

Yes, blocking the casino was sadly necessary.

Do you consider the rake to be high on Pokerstars (compared to other rooms?)

I quickly looked at Pokerstars compared to ACR:

Pokerstars rake table
ACR rake table

I guess I see what you mean, comparing the tables, huge difference for $1/$2 and up cash games, 2% or even 1% rake compared to 5% is huge.
(I just play micro's so I didn't notice this before, but thanks for mentioning )

Stars definitely increased their rake quite a bit in a lot of games/formats over the years. They're still a good site to play on for a lot of people just because they still have so much traffic and recreational players. But they should be more transparent, like to see that $11 MTTs are now $9.80 + $1.20 you have to actually click on the Structure tab.

Thanks for the cash games links too, I hadn't realized the difference was that big

 

[fundiver199]

The most commonly played poker game online is NLH, and most people play ring games with 5-9 players at the table. For these games Stars charge the following amount of rake:


2NL: 3,5% with a maximum of 0,3$ per pot
5NL: 4,15% with a maximum of 1,0$ per pot
10NL: 4,5% with a maximum of 1,5$ per pot
25NL: 4,5% with a maximum of 2,0$ per pot
50NL: 5,0% with a maximum of 2,0$ per pot
100NL: 5,0% with a maximum of 2,5$ per pot

For all these stakes ACR charge the same 5,0% with a maximum of 3,0$ per pot, so ACR is significantly more expensive than Stars. I think, there is maybe some confusion here with the rate for limit games? Its possible, ACR is cheaper with those, but few people play them anyway.

 

[COMIRRR]

At first PS was thought of as a poker room, but along with increasing numbers of players it was normal to think of a variety of other games to increase its profits. It does not force anyone to play anything other than poker but they have a well-established strategy on the psychological side by attracting players through various promotions in casino games, for example, where you do not have a good chance of winning against a computer.

 

[Pokerblitz]

At first PS was thought of as a poker room, but along with increasing numbers of players it was normal to think of a variety of other games to increase its profits. It does not force anyone to play anything other than poker but they have a well-established strategy on the psychological side by attracting players through various promotions in casino games, for example, where you do not have a good chance of winning against a computer.

Yes, this psychological side is what I am talking about. Tempting people to play casino games and become addicted to them.

On top of that, what scares me the most, is that I have the feeling that my brain is changing more and more negatively after playing casino games.

Although I understand that making people addicted boosts your business profit, I morally object against this strategy. People apparently being ok with it, that's something I don't understand.

 

[PHX]

I feel the same way that it is more of a gamble house now than a Poker room.

I too sometimes have difficulty with accepting losses on slots and go chasing them and it ends badly 4/5 times.

But I have come to understand and see that the Pokerstars getting new customers via sports bets and casinos is a positive thing as the site overall itself benefits from more income and that extra money would spill over to the Poker section.

What I love about Pokerstars is that if you don't like it or struggle with addiction to the other products like sportsbets and casino they give you option to completely close them off. There are some sites like party poker where you cannot totally block one product and you cannot remove it from your client view.

I still like and play casino and sportsbets. I prefer to play on sites that I do not have poker bankroll on so that there is no easy temptation to use poker funds. I found it is much easier to control your loss and spending this way and his has lead to greater enjoyment of games for me.

When I feel in the mood I deposit a $30 on a casino or Poker Room that I do not play on often and I play my slots and blackjack. If I win something at end of night great if I loose all of my deposit I take it like an entertainment expense for having some fun.

Hi folks,

I just want to speak my thoughts out loud here and am curious about your thoughts as well.

Pokerstars changed into a gambler house
I have been playing poker on Pokerstars for about 10 years now and I don't like the changes of the past years in any way.
By changes I mean that is is becoming a big gambler house instead of just a poker room. (that it used to be back in the days)

And by negative changes I mean:

• introduction of casino games
• introduction of sports bets
• introduction of spin&go's with lottery reward system (jackpot spin)
• introduction of lootboxes as a reward system
• introduction of the Deal Jackpot

Only positive thing I can say about it that it is attracting gambler type players that are exploitable.

Poker vs. casino games
Poker is a strategy game for me and I can keep decent bankroll management when playing. Casino games on the other hand are very addictive to me and changes my mental mindset, when I play slots, I keep playing until my bankroll is gone. (I guess this is the way that slot games are designed/ intended)
And by changing mindset I mainly mean that I see money differently when playing, When I play a $2 poker tournament and lose, that gives me a sad feeling, but when clicking the $2 wager on a slot machine with no win, I don't feel much. Also I mistake making money in the long run in poker vs. casino.
This change of mindset scares me a lot, so I decided to mail support and block casino games permanently which they did.

Online poker is rigged?
Ok, let's be clear here, I don't think online poker is rigged. But, the argument being that it makes no difference for the poker room whether a player wins or loses a hand in a cash game changes when you think of how slot machines work. What I mean by that is the chasing loses, expecting to win, or winning big and lose in the long run scenario's. A poker room can manipulate a player in this way, making poker more addictive (more like a slot machine) with the result of them spending more money.
(I know this is far fetched, but I'm curious on your thoughts on it)

My general problem is that I have the feeling that I am becoming more of a gambling player myself due to all these changes and stimuli. And the feeling I can't help that from happening since it is intended to be addictive, just something that is triggered in your brain and makes you an addict, I mean, I can't really stop that my brain works in a certain way (releasing addictive dopamines for instance)

 

[fundiver199]

Yes, this psychological side is what I am talking about. Tempting people to play casino games and become addicted to them.

On top of that, what scares me the most, is that I have the feeling that my brain is changing more and more negatively after playing casino games.

Although I understand that making people addicted boosts your business profit, I morally object against this strategy. People apparently being ok with it, that's something I don't understand.

Online casino games are for sure more addictive than poker, but if PokerStars dont take that market, then someone else will. At the end of the day we are adults, and if we have gambling problems, we need to seek professional help for them.

 

[Pokerblitz]

I decided to close my account at Pokerstars. No more casino-like poker bullsh*t.

Have to look for another room now

 

[pepsilv]

I only play poker so it doesn't distracts me. GOOD luck to all!

 

[theRaven68]

It is true that they became more of a gamble house than a poker room but I think that was necessary after 4blns of credit for purchasing beside poker I play sports betting but not casino games

 

[fundiver199]

Like it or not. But the simple fact is, there is much more money in online casino games or sports betting than in poker. So if a company is going to go through the hassle of obtaining a license to offer online gambling services in various countries, they would be insane to not offer casino games or sports betting.

Also I think, this benefit serious poker players. As I understand it, the cash games on Stars were essentially dead back in 2015 with insanely low players per flop percentages. Now they have at least come back to live just a little bit, and part of this is surely due to the fact, that the site now also attract casino players and sports betters, who then sometimes stray into the poker tables as well.

 

[PaxMundi]

The major poker sites like Pokerstars are moving poker more and more towards becomming a slot machine with push or fold spin and go style games.And the vip schemes on the major sites now are virtually worthless for micro stakes players.

 

[neptun1914]

I don't think that adding casino games, betting or anything else is a problem. They are just trying to attract more players. You can disable the casino games entirely from stars client and you can easily filter out the game types that you do not want to play (like spin and go for me for example). Till i see decrease of the number of players playing NLH in stars (and i see the opposite in fact) i don't care what changes they make to functions that i don't use or care for.

 

[nitulbhatia]

You did the right thing asking them to block the casino games from your account. Casinos always end up making money because of the house edge in their favour. The games are designed to make them money and make you lose money in the end. Be safe.

 

[fundiver199]

The major Poker sites like Pokerstars are moving poker more and more towards becomming a slot machine with push or fold spin and go style games.And the vip schemes on the major sites now are virtually worthless for micro stakes players.

I am also not a big fan of Spin n Gos, but they have been a saviour for the industry reportedly counting for around 20% of revenue. And indirectly this is important for all poker players, because without revenue there is no security staff, no advertisement budget, no software development, no customer support, no nothing.

Its a bit like hardcore sportscar fans, who moan about the fact, that Porsche now build SUVs. Maybe these are not, what the fans dream about, but they have saved the company, and without them their might not even be any Porsche brand today. At the end of the day the customer is always king, and in online poker recreational players are the customers. So whatever they want to play, the sites will need to offer.

 

[PaxMundi]

I am also not a big fan of Spin n Gos, but they have been a saviour for the industry reportedly counting for around 20% of revenue. And indirectly this is important for all poker players, because without revenue there is no security staff, no advertisement budget, no software development, no customer support, no nothing.

Its a bit like hardcore sportscar fans, who moan about the fact, that Porsche now build SUVs. Maybe these are not, what the fans dream about, but they have saved the company, and without them their might not even be any Porsche brand today. At the end of the day the customer is always king, and in online poker recreational players are the customers. So whatever they want to play, the sites will need to offer.

I remember the booming days of poker when it was poker which is probably why i see it a little differently.At least with a car the principle of driving is same,similar to regular poker and speed poker the game is essentially the same.But the difference between regular poker,speed poker and spin and goes is like the difference between a car and a skate board.

 

[fundiver199]

But then again if you dont like them, dont play them. Many people play these on their smartphone during a lunchbreak, or in the bus going back from work. Its fairly unlikely, that these players would find their way to a traditional cash table or tournament, if the Spin n Gos did not exist.

 

[PaxMundi]

But then again if you dont like them, dont play them. Many people play these on their smartphone during a lunchbreak, or in the bus going back from work. Its fairly unlikely, that these players would find their way to a traditional cash table or tournament, if the Spin n Gos did not exist.

The problem is slot machines disguised as poker take people away from poker and it kills the games player pools.Also how many players would they have lost by decimating the player bonuses and vip schemes on sites like Pokerstars.It's great for the shareholders im sure but pretty terrible for recreational and more serious players alike.I dont have a problem with people playing slot machines just dont disguise them and put them in the poker section.

 

[fundiver199]

I think, its very much up for debate, if Spin n Go take players away from more traditional formats of poker, or if it actually bring more players into these formats, because they started playing Spin n Gos instead of casino games. It can really go both ways.