Do you believe online poker is not random?

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lauestla

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Well it is a never ending discussion. Sometimes, espescially close to the MTT bubble I have the feeling that the room is organizing a « table cleaning » because the short stack with AA is often cracked by 5-6 os. But it is difficult to prove. So I have a dream (lol) that they are not cheating too much ;)
 
okeedokalee

okeedokalee

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There are many online sites.Go to them if this one concerns you.
 
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Richardszabo

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There is certainly a difference between the algorithms of poker rooms, but I don’t think there would be one. By the way, what do you base this statement on, because if you have experienced it a few times, it does not prove anything.
Poker rooms have no interest in doing so!
 
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Sschafell

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no friend is just impression none of this makes sense!
 
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Damian Baez

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Answer

I do believe that it is random, you just have to fight with the variance and avoid that speculative hands leave you out of a tournament.
 
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LosJay

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I think it's random. But maybe its confusing, because you play more hands online and that implies more exceptional situations.
 
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fundiver199

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The "big stack conspiracy theory" has existed forever, and some people feel this way about every single online site, which has existed. Its largely fueled by confirmation bias. As humans we tend to remember bad outcomes more than good ones, and since its per definition always someone with a bigger stack, that busts us from a tournament, its not difficult to see, where this idea is coming from.

In top of that big stacks are supposed to play more lose near the bubble and on the final table, so statistically speaking we are more likely to be all-in against a big stack. And they are more likely to hold a relatively marginal hand, which they can "suck out" on us with, because thats basically just them playing good poker.

If for instance we are in big blind with a 12BB stack on the final table, and it folds around to small blind with a 45BB stack, its totally reasonable for him to move all in preflop with any two cards to apply ICM pressure to us, especially if there are other even shorter stacks at the table, which we need to try to outlast. And when we eventually do call him with AK, his 72 has 32% equity. So one in three times his junk hand will bust us from the tournament, and this is when, the tilt and conspiracy theory is fueled.

The solution is to learn the equities and truly understand and accept, that AK is supposed to lose to 72 one in three times. So when it happens, its not a sign of the poker site being rigged. Thats like saying, that if you roll a dice, and it comes 1 or 2, then the dice is rigged. A completely ridiculous statement, that noone in their right mind would make.

The next step is to learn tournament strategy including push-fold, so that you know, which hands you are supposed to call or jam with short stacks, and so that you better understand final table and bubble dynamics. Often the underlying issue is, that people play to tight and passive, and therefore they often end up as the short stack being "bullied", while they wait for their AK or their big pocket pair to finally make a stand.

And this is basically not, how you win poker tournaments or even achieve a high ROI. What you want to do, is to adopt an aggressive and sometimes fairly loose play style, so that more often you are the big stack, who can push other people around. And so that you can afford to sometimes lose one of those unavoidable coin flips. More on confirmation bias in the video below.

 
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adjacentcape1

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I don't feel the same, because it doesn't make as much sense for any poker room to cheat their customers for pennies, when instead they can rake in a much larger profit by being diligent and honest. As a result, I usually don't suspect any sites from cheating, because it is very likely that others would know about it.
 
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mouTAT

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It's a complicated discussion rivers kicked me more than doubling my stacks
 
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tourpro99

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I think that the long-term benefit of being known as honest outweighs any potential short-term gain by 'rigging' the play, especially for older well-known online sites. Fringe sites? Not so sure.
 
GRIN281289

GRIN281289

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Anything is possible, basically the actions of all poker rooms are the same ...
 
puzzlefish

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This is going to be an extension of the rigged megathread, no doubt. It's the same questions and answers over and over again.

Why would poker sites need to run an elimination bot? To speed up games and increase pot sizes. Faster games mean more fees. Larger pot sizes mean more rake. Together, this leads to increased profits.

Why do chip leaders seem to get lucky and bust out smaller stacks? Obviously because smaller stacks can't bust larger stacks. Smaller stacks double up. The question is: do you remember how many smaller stacks doubled up against big stacks? Or do you just remember when the big stacks eliminate the small stacks?

If you want to really see what is going on, you have to watch what happens not only to you but to others at your table and at other tables. Only then can you start to get a picture of whether or not something strange is going on. Until more people start doing that and, better yet, until there is real data being collected about the types of boards that show up over time at tables, all we will ever see are opinions.
 
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Cinhos_2000

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I don't know about ACR, but the site I use I trust. I've never seen anything that makes me believe it's rigged.
 
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freestocks

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It depends on how you define random. Nature creates patterns and we look for them.

The sites try and make poker fair and random.
 
YYfourU

YYfourU

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The fact that people even have to ask this question makes me feel like there is a reason for people to notice a difference. I noticed and picked up on it right away and changed my online vs live play. The fact I have to change my game just makes me feel like a computer can’t really simulate a real deck of cards.
 
pljosko

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We often have that feeling when luck is not on our side, but when a river saves us, we don't even think about it, everything is as it should be, hmmm ...
 
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fundiver199

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Why would poker sites need to run an elimination bot? To speed up games and increase pot sizes. Faster games mean more fees.

That is theoretically true, if people buy into new games after busting, which probably at least some percentage do. But it would be incredibly stupid by poker sites to try to increase their profits this way, when there are so many other legal methods, they can use to achieve the same result.

Like simply changing the structure of their tournaments to make them faster. A lot of people actually complain about the slow structure of ACR´s MTTs, so in all likelyhood ACR could both attract more players and make each player put in more volume, if they changed them to something faster.

And on pokerstars the turbo SnGs are way more popular than those with regular speed. So the majority of players completely voluntarely chose games, where on average they can expect to bust faster. Given that situation I have a really difficult time seeing, why PokerStars would need to cheat its players and risk their entire business to make tournaments last shorter.

Why do chip leaders seem to get lucky and bust out smaller stacks? Obviously because smaller stacks can't bust larger stacks. Smaller stacks double up. The question is: do you remember how many smaller stacks doubled up against big stacks? Or do you just remember when the big stacks eliminate the small stacks?

Exactly. And have all these conspiracy theorists really never been on a SnG bubble or a final table, where the shortest stack continuously win every single all-in, so that it drags on and on forever? I have many times, and its obviously annoying, because it will sometimes result is us being the bubble boy or the next player out in a situation, where we should have gotten the ladder.

until there is real data being collected about the types of boards that show up over time at tables, all we will ever see are opinions.

Trackers have existed almost since the birth of online poker, and professional players have collected billions of hands in them, on which all sorts of statistical analysis can be performed. Your statement is the same as saying, there are only "opinions" about, who was behind the 9/11 attacks, and thats its equally likely, it was the CIA as Al Quida.
 
puzzlefish

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That is theoretically true, if people buy into new games after busting, which probably at least some percentage do. But it would be incredibly stupid by poker sites to try to increase their profits this way, when there are so many other legal methods, they can use to achieve the same result.

Like simply changing the structure of their tournaments to make them faster. A lot of people actually complain about the slow structure of ACR´s MTTs, so in all likelyhood ACR could both attract more players and make each player put in more volume, if they changed them to something faster.

And on PokerStars the turbo SnGs are way more popular than those with regular speed. So the majority of players completely voluntarely chose games, where on average they can expect to bust faster. Given that situation I have a really difficult time seeing, why PokerStars would need to cheat its players and risk their entire business to make tournaments last shorter.


Trackers have existed almost since the birth of online poker, and professional players have collected billions of hands in them, on which all sorts of statistical analysis can be performed. Your statement is the same as saying, there are only "opinions" about, who was behind the 9/11 attacks, and thats its equally likely, it was the CIA as Al Quida.

It isn't helpful if there are billions of hands that have been collected but the wrong analysis is applied to those hands. I have mentioned it many times before. Nobody is analyzing temporal relationships of hands, the players who receive those hands, and the boards that show up. Don't pretend like you know that the relevant statistical analyses have all been performed. Likewise, you shouldn't pretend to know what effect an elimination bot would have on profit margins compared to "legal" methods or when supplemented by those methods.
 
A

arsenalcho_1

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hi

what's wrong with the algorithm, you have to be lucky to get out, but in my opinion everything is normal and normal
 
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Aces74

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Let us watch Joey Ingram's You tube videos on Acr.
Acr is slime and ashady af operation.
If you think for a minute that the deal is fair you are seriously justsomefish.
I have won tournaments there of over 900+ people not a freeroll.
I have played hands were the % is absolute insane not AA.
I have been in cash game were a player called my all in AA pre flop shove for 200+ bb with 27 suited. He magically hit trip 2s and said was a mis click haha, then said he was on tilt as a reason, then told me to rebuy.... wtf ever I left table immediately.If you feel I am stating something of variance I assure you, you are wrong 2% gets there 4% gets there in flops where there is no logic or ev stance for calling 3 bet or 4 bet . Acr completely would ruin my live play as the sites deal is so strange for poker nlh.Seen some craziness in plo omaha that's even harder to explain certain hand win % is all I will say.
When you play a lot of tournaments on Acr you see patterns of not only small vs large chip stacks. Certain hands win %'s,certain player lines and the hands they chose to play in various positions. How about this scenario you are crushing the tournament then this crap that magically(actually sit out then return after 4-8 levels could be a +ev strategy on Acr ekkkkk..)
Then if you have a problem or ? supports auto answer support will answer with a predetermined reply not addressing collusion, multi accounting or tell you any results or details of investigation(that never is investigated).
Thinking about not cashing out and leaving your money on the site(which is the worst thing you could ever do personally).Phil Nagy Ceo WPN quote"if someone thinks its rigged they are welcome to play somewhere else." "No sweat off my back" Not only does this guy rep shady he is a slime ball.His J.I. dis to Joey Ingram with Boski,FatTrain,a dealer, and some sketchy troll shows this back room low budget scheme the Caged event really was.
Let us look Acr a conversation about the Landon and Bill heads up match.
Mel Acr support ask when they will the match start tomorrow?
That should raise the first red flag!
Next Says they are thinking of offering a line in the sports book on the match. ekkk
Then Mel types something really strange "Poker is rigged?:)"
few minutes Phil Nagy starts responding to the ?s
with enough money on the line anything could be corrupt hmmm VENOM ...
MR .Nagy what is enough money to you ???
he at a point says a little benefit of the doubt would go a long way.
 
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Sulfuros001

Sulfuros001

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Algorithm

I don't believe it has do be ruled with algorithm, especially on the tourneys, like what's the benifit of the Tournaments manager from it? They can't add bots on tourneys.
 
C

cheeeer

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No, but I remember PokerStars explained that theoretically it is hard to make algorithm to make draw random online.
 
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BoredSmash

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I think so so

Well, to be honest, I fell that in all online poker rooms. And I bealieve that online gambling isn't a real ramdom but neither a totally fake one. I just think that all this is about not to lose much players that are catched by better players. Just imagine how would it be if the random were totally fair. It there would be just good players, and that mean few profits to the room.
 
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