Bots found on PokerRoom cash games

[Bombjack]

Noticed some suspicious behaviour on PokerRoom, and found evidence of collusion between them - be warned. I've contacted their Customer Services and am awaiting a response. I'll let you know what PokerRoom do about it.

Here's what I wrote, so you know what to look for:
--------

I would like to report some suspicious behaviour by two players on the NL Hold'em ring games, specifically the table Greensboro during the times given above, around 11PM (GMT+1) on 1st August 2006.

I noticed 2 players, "wabbit25" and "ringofpyre" who were both on the table when I joined it.
I watched ringofpyre for 49 hands and he folded every single one.
I watched wabbit25 for 47 hands and he folded every one except 1, where, in the small blind with 1 limper, he made a 12x big blind riase, an unusual and bad play given taking in to account position, number of others in the pot, etc.

When I noticed their unusual patterns (I use PokerTracker), neither player would respond to my repeated attempts to chat to them.

I find it difficult to believe that any human would play in this manner (as if folding 50 hands in a row is fun or interesting), and I strongly suspect they are software "bots" in collusion.

From the above you might just think could be coincidence, or I just happened to join a table with 2 very tight players who perhaps multi-tabled a lot. However, looking through their history I found a piece of evidence that links the two accounts:

When I joined the table their chipcounts were:
Seat 9: ringofpyre ($22.55 in chips)
Seat 10: wabbit25 ($20.90 in chips)

12 hands later, in hand #791,563,740 (both folding every hand) their chipcounts were:
Seat 9: ringofpyre ($22.15 in chips)
Seat 10: wabbit25 ($20.50 in chips)

The following hand #791,568,397:
Seat 9: ringofpyre ($25.00 in chips)
Seat 10: wabbit25 ($20.50 in chips)

The following hand #791,572,426:
Seat 9: ringofpyre ($25.00 in chips)
Seat 10: wabbit25 ($25.00 in chips)

Note that the two players have rebought to the maximum at the same time. They did not do any further rebuys while I watched.

After hand #791,676,720, wabbit25 strangely left the table and came back 2 hands later on the other side.

They would sit out occasionally so that their chip counts would not be exactly the same and arouse suspicion.

I suggest you contact the owners of these usernames by telephone and ask them to explain their actions and the connection between them, as they are clearly in collusion, and probably controlled by software.

Please keep me informed of your progress, as I would like to be reassured as to the integrity of your poker tables and the severity with which you deal with such cases if I am to play here in future.

Feel free to ask me for any further assistance I can provide.

Regards

Bombjack_x

 

[Freakakanus]

Probably that oddsmaker dude trying his latest and greatest invention.
Keep us informed.....

 

[joosebuck]

wow great work buster. doubt they will keep you involved though, considering privacy policies

 

[Stick66]

Not sure you want to be telling them you use PT. Should be OK, but you never know.

 

[beardyian]

Not sure you want to be telling them you use PT. Should be OK, but you never know.

Why not it is a recognised way of analysing your play.

Certainly seems a strange passage of play - luv to know what was going on there

IanT

 

[Bombjack]

Poker Tracker is perfectly legal and I don't know of any site that bans or even discourages it.

 

[Stick66]

Poker Tracker is perfectly legal and I don't know of any site that bans or even discourages it.

For one, party poker discourages it. Bigtime. They made a specific change to their software because of it. A while back, they took away the ability to record spectator hands. You now have to be "dealt in the hand" to record HH's. You can't even record while "sitting out" at the table. This was done specifically because of Party's objection to PokerTracker. (The only exception to this is that you can have entire SnG HH's & summaries emailed to you, no matter your placing.) If Party doesn't like it, there's bound to be other sites that feel the same.

I never said PokerTracker was not "legal". My meaning was that one might bring more attention or scrutiny to one's account if it is brought up. Sorry, just trying to look out for y'all. To each his own.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Correction: It was done because of Party's objection to datamining tables using PokerTracker. They have no issue with players using it at tables they are sitting at, they just had issues with people opening 10 tables, going to sleep and datamining said tables.

If they did have a problem with it, they'd ban it (okay, that would be hilariously stupid because of the money they'd lose, but ehhh...).

Heck, some sites even allow certain affiliates to offer free PT with signup deals. Hardly the actions of places that discourage it, no?

 

[Stick66]

Sorry, just trying to look out for y'all.

" " "

 

[MyNetBets]

Noticed some suspicious behaviour on PokerRoom, and found evidence of collusion between them - be warned. I've contacted their Customer Services and am awaiting a response. I'll let you know what PokerRoom do about it.

Here's what I wrote, so you know what to look for:
--------

I would like to report some suspicious behaviour by two players on the NL Hold'em ring games, specifically the table Greensboro during the times given above, around 11PM (GMT+1) on 1st August 2006.

I noticed 2 players, "wabbit25" and "ringofpyre" who were both on the table when I joined it.
I watched ringofpyre for 49 hands and he folded every single one.
I watched wabbit25 for 47 hands and he folded every one except 1, where, in the small blind with 1 limper, he made a 12x big blind riase, an unusual and bad play given taking in to account position, number of others in the pot, etc.

When I noticed their unusual patterns (I use PokerTracker), neither player would respond to my repeated attempts to chat to them.

I find it difficult to believe that any human would play in this manner (as if folding 50 hands in a row is fun or interesting), and I strongly suspect they are software "bots" in collusion.

From the above you might just think could be coincidence, or I just happened to join a table with 2 very tight players who perhaps multi-tabled a lot. However, looking through their history I found a piece of evidence that links the two accounts:

When I joined the table their chipcounts were:
Seat 9: ringofpyre ($22.55 in chips)
Seat 10: wabbit25 ($20.90 in chips)

12 hands later, in hand #791,563,740 (both folding every hand) their chipcounts were:
Seat 9: ringofpyre ($22.15 in chips)
Seat 10: wabbit25 ($20.50 in chips)

The following hand #791,568,397:
Seat 9: ringofpyre ($25.00 in chips)
Seat 10: wabbit25 ($20.50 in chips)

The following hand #791,572,426:
Seat 9: ringofpyre ($25.00 in chips)
Seat 10: wabbit25 ($25.00 in chips)

Note that the two players have rebought to the maximum at the same time. They did not do any further rebuys while I watched.

After hand #791,676,720, wabbit25 strangely left the table and came back 2 hands later on the other side.

They would sit out occasionally so that their chip counts would not be exactly the same and arouse suspicion.

I suggest you contact the owners of these usernames by telephone and ask them to explain their actions and the connection between them, as they are clearly in collusion, and probably controlled by software.

Please keep me informed of your progress, as I would like to be reassured as to the integrity of your poker tables and the severity with which you deal with such cases if I am to play here in future.

Feel free to ask me for any further assistance I can provide.

Regards

Bombjack_x

good work...although i would think they were 2 actual real players in cahoots with eatchother before thinking it was the software jut my opinion though

 

[Bombjack]

I think it's probably one person controlling the two usernames and pressing rebuy at the same time. They may not be totally computer controlled but I would imagine whoever's doing it would have some sort of automated system for clicking fold 50 hands in a row. I don't know, PokerRoom say they have someone in their Risk department looking into it and they'll let me know what they find.

 

[tcelling]

What exactly is poker tracker???

 

[shortstacked]

Heck, some sites even allow certain affiliates to offer free PT with signup deals. Hardly the actions of places that discourage it, no

When I got my PT I got a free $50 to Party poker, so im like clueless on some of the posts

 

[Fish]

as they are clearly in collusion, and probably controlled by software.

Ahahhahahahahahahahah!!!!!
Tell me you were trying to be funny. :withstupi

 

[Bombjack]

No. Why?

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Let's take an objective look at the 'evidence' you've provided.

I watched ringofpyre for 49 hands and he folded every single one.
I watched wabbit25 for 47 hands and he folded every one except 1, where, in the small blind with 1 limper, he made a 12x big blind riase, an unusual and bad play given taking in to account position, number of others in the pot, etc.

So you are alleging that there are two colluders (bots or otherwise) at your table who are going about this collusion by folding all their hands? Hardly the most efficient method of co-operating with each other for gain, is it? In what way do you think are they co-operating with each other if you have never seen them in a hand together?

If you were at a full ring table, and the two players in question were rocks, it is not in the slightest bit unusual to see a person do nothing but fold for a few rounds. People have cold spells of cards.

As for the "unusual and bad play", are you implying that all human and non-colluding poker players play absolutely perfect poker?

Note that the two players have rebought to the maximum at the same time. They did not do any further rebuys while I watched.

I'm pretty sure I've rebought at the same time as another player on a table at some point. Multiple times, in fact. Perhaps (a) it was coincidence, or (b) one player saw the other rebuy, and thought, "Hm, that reminds me, may as well top my stack up"? Or perhaps they're evil colluding bots, whatever sounds more reasonable.

After hand #791,676,720, wabbit25 strangely left the table and came back 2 hands later on the other side.

People will sometimes switch seats for positional purposes. Again, nothing 'unusual' about this.

They would sit out occasionally so that their chip counts would not be exactly the same and arouse suspicion.

Do human, non-colluding players never sit out?

Seriously, I don't mean to sound like an ass here - I'm all for people bot-hunting and reporting suspicious activity to sites, but don't you think you're being a tad overzealous in stating that these players are "clearly in collusion" and "probably controlled by software", considering that you have no real evidence of either?

In any case, if by some fluke they are bots, I'd be perfectly happy to have them at my table all day if they're going to fold any non-premium hand and raise 13BBs whenever they enter a pot.

 

[Bombjack]

So you are alleging that there are two colluders (bots or otherwise) at your table who are going about this collusion by folding all their hands? Hardly the most efficient method of co-operating with each other for gain, is it? In what way do you think are they co-operating with each other if you have never seen them in a hand together?

The fact that together they only played 1 hand out of 96 is evidence of their being bots, not colluders. And there's more than one way of colluding - you can collude in a live game by raising / re-raising together to push other players out, and in a tournament to dump chips. The type of collusion that is relevant to online poker and I'm suspicious of here, is sharing information about hole cards. Doesn't give you too much of an edge in hold'em if you only have knowledge of another two cards, but it is worth something.

If you were at a full ring table, and the two players in question were rocks, it is not in the slightest bit unusual to see a person do nothing but fold for a few rounds. People have cold spells of cards.

Have you ever seen anyone fold 49 hands in a row? 2 on the same table? Dorkus, I've watched rocks before. Tight rocks play 10% of hands, and the very lowest I've seen is 4.5% (and I'm not sure he wasn't a bot, as he wouldn't chat). Here we're talking 1%.

As for the "unusual and bad play", are you implying that all human and non-colluding poker players play absolutely perfect poker?

Ummm... no, but you don't see many beginners playing 1% of hands either. If this were a very tight human, he'd certainly know that this was not a good or profitable play with AA or KK. But if you program an algorithm to do it for you, this could easily happen. It's not conclusive but it's unusual, and adds to the jigsaw.

I'm pretty sure I've rebought at the same time as another player on a table at some point. Multiple times, in fact. Perhaps (a) it was coincidence, or (b) one player saw the other rebuy, and thought, "Hm, that reminds me, may as well top my stack up"?

a) Maybe. But if so it's about a 2% chance, which would be seen as significant in a statistical test.
b) 2 players playing in the same very unusual way, one feeling they suddenly need to top up becuase they're down $2.85 from the max $25. If it's a rock, he's certainly going to be playing 6 tables, and you think he's going to notice if someone else, with whom he has no connection, tops up from $20.50 to $25 on one of them? Come off it.

Do human, non-colluding players never sit out?

Of course they do. But if two people have the same chip count for 30 hands, wouldn't you notice?

Seriously, I don't mean to sound like an ass here - I'm all for people bot-hunting and reporting suspicious activity to sites, but don't you think you're being a tad overzealous in stating that these players are "clearly in collusion" and "probably controlled by software", considering that you have no real evidence of either?

No I don't. I really can't imagine there are two players, tighter than any others I've ever encountered, sitting at the same table, not responding to chat, clicking Fold 99 times out of 100, re-filling at the same time, playing like a bad algorithm, and having absolutely nothing to do with each other, without there being any monkey business going on.

In any case, if by some fluke they are bots, I'd be perfectly happy to have them at my table all day if they're going to fold any non-premium hand and raise 13BBs whenever they enter a pot.

OK they were crap bots, if that's what they were, but I'm certain they were controlled by the same person, it's against the rules and they need to be reported. I really don't see why you think there's nothing suspicious about this... or maybe you're just being devil's advocate, in which case I've just wasted 20 mins of typing.

 

[Stick66]

I have 3 possible theories:

1) Maybe they were just trying to collect points to clear a bonus. I've heard of the auto-fold method of clearing a bonus. Most sites frown upon this, but it is very hard to prove or combat.

2) Maybe they were bots that were turned off or needed adjusting. 2 players with nearly the same actions for that long IS suspicious.

3) Maybe they were 2 people that wanted to play, but were at work and had their boss talking to them or something. Or had any other task to do. Some people don't use sitout. They use auto-fold. (As for the time: "It's always 5 o'clock somewhere.")

Just some thoughts.

 

[ChuckTs]

I agree, bombjack, that their weird behaviour is suspicious, but like others said, I can't seem to find a reason that what they're doing is beneficial to them. Sure they could be colluding...but only playing 1 in 40 ssomething hands does not sound like the most profitable way of going about it. I dunno; I gotta say this is a weird occurance, but I can't find a reason why the owner of the accounts would play this way or make their 'bots' play this way. tbh, I think Mr.S's bonus-clearing theory sounds like the most probable

 

[Bombjack]

Well, the bonus-clearing theory could be true I suppose. But if so it still looks like one person trying to clear two bonuses at the same time. Why one would sit out for a while, and move seats if they're not playing hands, I don't know. By the way, you don't get auto-fold on cash games, you get sit-out instead.

Anyway, got the following reply from PokerRoom today, basically saying they don't comment on individuals, but have a free tourney entry. Interpret as you will.


Collusion [T2006080601NES050Z527973]

Hi Mr. Jones,

Thank you for contacting PokerRoom Support and for sharing your concerns with us.

In order to live up to the word 'secure' in our company mission, several measures have been taken. We have both manual and automatic security functions in place, providing an around-the-clock coverage of games.

Please rest assured that your reportings have been forwarded to our Risk Department for their review and attention. As you may understand, as a measure to protect our player's integrity, we do never discuss actions taken against individual players.

As a token of our appreciation for your patronage, we have now placed one $9+1 Poker Classic tournament ticket in your account. The ticket is valid for 14 days.

Should you have any further concerns or queries, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Regards,

Priscilla


PokerRoom.com Support Team

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

I can think of another scenario where the folding takes place like that; if they are sitting out and the site doesn't display their status. There are sites that do that. Poker Host is one.

 

[Bombjack]

On PokerRoom they go semi-transparent. They don't get dealt any cards if they're sitting out. In this case they weren't sitting out, they were just folding the cards.

 

[Jack Daniels]

As a token of our appreciation for your patronage, we have now placed one $9+1 Poker Classic tournament ticket in your account. The ticket is valid for 14 days.

That settles it, starting tomorrow I am going to every site I play at and alleging bots on some table or other or some type of collusion. If even half come up with an appreciative gift like this, I'm set.

P.S. yes, I was just kidding.
most likely
probably

but it was a nice gesture that they made.