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After all, who believes that most poker sites are rigged?

Andyreas

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Do you think that has absolutely no way that the coding of algorithms can't generate different results from the physical card game? Specially talking about companies that could change entire economies... that's why I've called you naive.
No one said it's definitely not possible. Most of us simply said why they should do it. Especially when their business model depends on it.

And its a little extreme to call poker sites in the position to change entire economies.

And while it's somewhat reasonable to discuss something, it's astonishing in the same way how some people are clearly convinced that the sites are manipulating the RNGs because they've experienced a few bad beats in a row.

What probably annoys some of the members commenting here that this discussion is going on forever since online poker exists and it's just tiring.

And finally in the internet there are theories for every weird thought out there and always (a minority of) people believing/following it. Does that justify anything? Just look at the flat earth theory. Just because some people agree, doesn't make the thoughts right.
 
Captainine9

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No one said it's definitely not possible. Most of us simply said why they should do it. Especially when their business model depends on it.

And its a little extreme to call poker sites in the position to change entire economies.

And while it's somewhat reasonable to discuss something, it's astonishing in the same way how some people are clearly convinced that the sites are manipulating the RNGs because they've experienced a few bad beats in a row.

What probably annoys some of the members commenting here that this discussion is going on forever since online poker exists and it's just tiring.

And finally in the internet there are theories for every weird thought out there and always (a minority of) people believing/following it. Does that justify anything? Just look at the flat earth theory. Just because some people agree, doesn't make the thoughts right.
I'm not convinced of anything, and these ideas definately didn't start because of some bad beats lol
It's absoutely different to talk about something that is scientifically proved for hundreds of years, and something that has no material or content at all regarding the computer program code, which is a relatively recent reality and technology. Maybe it is not manipulation, but the creation of the program itself could be made in a way that would work differently than the live game. Who knows?
But ok, if you think this type of discussion is "tiring" in anyway, I won't bring it up again. I found it very rich in many ways, actually, and I love arguing, but apparently it "annoys" some of the members because is a subject discussed for years and never had a consistent closure or answer... so let's just stop questioning things, just like the companies and governments wants us to.
It's actually the first time I chat about it with anyone other than my friends, books and papers, and I thought here was the perfect space for it. Guess I was wrong.
 
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Andyreas

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But ok, if you think this type of discussion is "tiring" in anyway, I won't bring it up again. I found the discussion very rich in many ways, and I love arguing, but apparently "annoys" some of the members...
No one said you are not allowed to bring it up (again) or continue discussing. I simply tried to justify the reaction of some members in this thread.

If you found the discussion rich, then that's good and I'm happy to hear. 👍
 
machinm19

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The only real question here is “Are poker sites the first place in the history of the universe since money was invented to not cheat?” Answers on a postcard to STEALTH OBSERVER, 123 Ultimate bet drive, Hellmuth street, Russ Hamilton Way. Costa Rica 🇨🇷 The sites probably don’t need to rig the RNG when they have software that lets them see everyone’s cards but doesn’t mean they don’t, nothing would suprise me in a world full of scammers, hackers and dodgy employees. You just need to look at the rigging as part of the game then it’s easier to deal with “bad beats”
 
Suns of Beaches

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A lot is possible. But as Andyreas already said: its highly unlikely.

What is completely impossible imo: believing in such things while at the same time being decent at poker.
 
scobido

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I don't think that he would have manipulated anything in online poker, as long as in the live game there are many coincidences in flops, just like in the online game. I think that if you start with this thinking when you start playing, of course you will believe all the time because the cards are manipulated, but if you think positively it should not even occur to you that it could be a trick. So, good luck and inspiration at the tables.
 
Andyreas

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Independently of the reason for such a manipulation, each regulated (and even the unregulated ones) have implemented an RNG software which gets an external certificate.

For example for pokerstars, you can read about it here:

One provider explains in a blog how it works:

So in theory, there's the possibility to create (close to) true randomness in online poker.

Of course the site could potentially still "tweak" their algorithms after certification, similar to the automotive industry creating a software that produces different results in the testing environment than under real conditions.

If we assume they do it to prevent people from consistently winning (enough), I wonder why there are still people consistently winning at the game. Easily can be verified at sharkscope.
On the other hand there are also many players consistently loosing at the game and still continuing. (Probably because they enjoy and don't care about the money.)

Both are somewhat counterfeiting the idea. Shouldn't the sites make the first group loose (more) and the second win (more)?

Last but not least, we also clearly see that sites discontinuing game types where too many people are winning consistently (or easily), like regular SnGs. Shouldn't they just do it by tweaking their algorithm (further)?

In parallel, many sites are additionally promoting game types with an additional part of luck, like mystery bounties, shootouts, all-in or fold, etc. In these types, there's (even) less reason to manipulate anything because by construction there's an additional element of luck which makes the games harder to beat or make recreational players win (more).
 
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There are thousands of players on a popular site at any one time, you really think the poker sites are then trying to decide of those players who should win, when they can easily just collect the rake
 
acidburnfx

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I don't believe the sites are rigged. My question would be why they would want to do that and risk going out of business.

We all know variance can get very bad and long but many people just don't seem to know it or they don't really understand it. During the worst point of a downturn this year I took a deeper look into my stats. We all know if you get into a coin flip situation with a PP vs 2 overs you will win just over 50% of the time. At one point in late February, I was only winning 20% of my coin flips as the favorite. There are people out there who would take that as proof the site is rigged but when you see the sample size of the hands it's so small. I am still only winning 32% of the hands this year but obviously that bad run ended but it will take time for variance to be taken out of the Margine of error to make it a fair evaluation. Many people just don't realize it can take millions of hands to take the variance out of the equation. I could go on and on with many examples just like this.
This particular video received a lot of criticism, dislikes and the profile simply decided to disable comments. By the way, if you understand psychology will notice some signs.

 
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... I would LOVE to BELIEVE you but FACTS are provable, there is no such thing as a 98 or 99% hand in poker, math is a provable fact, you might want to research how high a hand can even be favored in poker before making such absurd claims, even if it was runner runner as you say it's still not 98 or 99%, never mind 7 times in a row, you might as well tell me you found a unicorn swimming in your pool 7 days in a row and that would be more believable, you don't need to blame ps for your lack of mythical hands to post, it was already more than obvious you wouldn't have any such hands to post because it's a mathematical impossibility but thanks for playing😏....
No such thing? Really? And you actually believe this, and say math backs it up? Utterly hilarious.

Here's two of the 7.

I'm In BB with Ac3c, button limps with Kc8c. Flop is Ad 2c 5c. That's 98% all day long. I checked shoved, BB calls and gets runner-runner. Kh8d

I'm in cutoff a 3 bet with KcKh, bb calls with Ah3d. Flop is Ks2h2d. That's 99% all day long. I min bet flop BB shoves, I call of course and run out is As Ad.

You obviously have no comprehension of poker math at all.
 
Poker Orifice

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. 3. if anybody was able to really proof something, they are probably already so rich that they would never do it lol
But for the most part, we can see exactly who is winning (or not) when it comes to online Tournament play. And I can guarantee you that the winning players know (or know of) each other. There isn't a group of players who are just secretly killing it without the rest of the community knowing them.

It'd be like Usain Bolt not knowing who he's been running against while competing against the top sprinters of the world.

I wonder if Usain spends hours upon hours seeking out supplements he heard might've existed or if he spends those hours training, recuperating, etc.?
 
Poker Orifice

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No such thing? Really? And you actually believe this, and say math backs it up? Utterly hilarious.

Here's two of the 7.

I'm In BB with Ac3c, button limps with Kc8c. Flop is Ad 2c 5c. That's 98% all day long. I checked shoved, BB calls and gets runner-runner. Kh8d

I'm in cutoff a 3 bet with KcKh, bb calls with Ah3d. Flop is Ks2h2d. That's 99% all day long. I min bet flop BB shoves, I call of course and run out is As Ad.

You obviously have no comprehension of poker math at all.

BB had tons of outs! the K-2-2 could've easily ran out K22-2-2 - quads with a higher kicker!
 
MK_

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No such thing? Really? And you actually believe this, and say math backs it up? Utterly hilarious.

Here's two of the 7.

I'm In BB with Ac3c, button limps with Kc8c. Flop is Ad 2c 5c. That's 98% all day long. I checked shoved, BB calls and gets runner-runner. Kh8d

I'm in cutoff a 3 bet with KcKh, bb calls with Ah3d. Flop is Ks2h2d. That's 99% all day long. I min bet flop BB shoves, I call of course and run out is As Ad.

You obviously have no comprehension of poker math at all.
lol so now you remember hands, it's a miracle.... uh that's post flop... obviously a hand can be that high postflop.... now do preflop... and show having 98% pre 7 times in a row and losing all 7 hands IN A ROW... I'll wait lol
 
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jmbluffnstuff

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lol so now you remember hands, it's a miracle.... uh that's post flop... obviously a hand can be that high postflop.... now do preflop... and show having 98% pre 7 times in a row and losing all 7 hands IN A ROW... I'll wait lol
I never claimed any hand to be 98% to 99% preflop, that's something ridiculous you made up.

.....would you please take this guy losing a 70% play chip hand more seriously😏👍
That's preflop, it didn't go in preflop, when it went in it as 99%,
I'd love to see this happen to you over and over again like it has to me.
See how funny it is then.

lol so now you remember hands, it's a miracle.... uh that's post flop... obviously a hand can be that high postflop.... now do preflop... and show having 98% pre 7 times in a row and losing all 7 hands IN A ROW... I'll wait lol
I use a tracker, maybe you've heard of them? No probably not.
 
MK_

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I use a tracker, maybe you've heard of them? No probably not.
I have indeed.... so if you use a tracker then you have the hands, you don't need to ask ps for the hands😎... so post all the 7 in a row at 98%... I'll wait!

I never claimed any hand to be 98% to 99% preflop, that's something ridiculous you made up.
I'm the one making stuff up... ok lol

That's preflop, it didn't go in preflop, when it went in it as 99%,
I'd love to see this happen to you over and over again like it has to me.
See how funny it is then.
lol so now it's 99% and none of them were preflop ?, ... your stories change a lot dude, it does happen to me and everyone else over and over, it's called poker, especially if you're playing play chips where no one has any reason to fold... those hands were 70% or less pre why is it a mystery you lost, why's it even important it's play chips... but ok you have my deepest sympathies, if you can't handle losing play chips please don't play for real
 
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jmbluffnstuff

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lol so now it's 99% and none of them were preflop ?, ... your stories change a lot dude, it does happen to me and everyone else over and over, it's called poker, especially if you're playing play chips where no one has any reason to fold... those hands were 70% or less pre why is it a mystery you lost, why's it even important it's play chips... but ok you have my deepest sympathies, if you can't handle losing play chips please don't play for real
I'm a winning player on real money, 14.9 ROI, and I've got a bet for you....I got 20 grand that I never made a post that said I was all in preflop as a 98-99% fav...I said I lost 7x in a row as a 98-99% favorite "AFTER THE FLOP" to runner-runner, which is a complete fact.
This is something YOU made up in a feeble attempt to do yourself justice, to try and berate me.

It doesn't matter what the hand is preflop if the money hasn't gone in yet. It matters what it is when it goes in.
One of the most basic of poker concepts that you obviously have no comprehension of based upon your ridiculous replies.
If I were you, I'd try checkers instead, because you have absolutely no concept of poker math whatsoever.
 
MK_

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I'm a winning player on real money, 14.9 ROI, and I've got a bet for you....I got 20 grand that I never made a post that said I was all in preflop as a 98-99% fav...I said I lost 7x in a row as a 98-99% favorite "AFTER THE FLOP" to runner-runner, which is a complete fact.
This is something YOU made up in a feeble attempt to do yourself justice, to try and berate me.

It doesn't matter what the hand is preflop if the money hasn't gone in yet. It matters what it is when it goes in.
One of the most basic of poker concepts that you obviously have no comprehension of based upon your ridiculous replies.
If I were you, I'd try checkers instead, because you have absolutely no concept of poker math whatsoever.
....does this mean you don't have a tracker and you aren't going to post the hands😎👍
 
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jmbluffnstuff

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....does this mean you don't have a tracker and you aren't going to post the hands😎👍
No, it means exactly what it says, but someone reading it has to have the ability to read and comprehend what is said.
Did you take the 20k bet?

Once you do, we will make another 20k bet on the tracker.
 
MK_

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No, it means exactly what it says, but someone reading it has to have the ability to read and comprehend what is said.
Did you take the 20k bet?

Once you do, we will make another 20k bet on the tracker.
.... 😅
No, it means exactly what it says, but someone reading it has to have the ability to read and comprehend what is said.
Did you take the 20k bet?

Once you do, we will make another 20k bet on the tracker.
I got all the play chips I need bud😅👍
 
mr.fers_one

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anyone who thinks that random number generators are not random, thus trying to justify their bad game, that I have AA here, and he got two pairs from 9-3... deal out one hundred AA and c 9-3 hands and just see how many times the weakest hand wins in the end... play poker, and stop thinking that there is a universal conspiracy against you))
 
RhinoRyan89

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The General population of poker players skills/knowledge of the game has vastly improved these days compared to the past.

Which makes the game alot more competitive which can lead to downswings and run bad.

Which may make people think the game rigged or not beatable.

You need a big net as there's not as many fish to catch in the waters these days.
 
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After all the injustices I have had in online poker, I have the impression that they are all manipulated.
 
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