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rk92559
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I could really care less if you think I am just a paranoid idiot. I have stated that I play online everyday about 8 hours, and have done quite well. I don't play freerolls, and if I did, I wouldn't whine about it being fixed if I didn't make it to the final table for my 15 bucks. I have seen RNGs be manipulated in slots and video poker. casinos and online gaming are famous for talking out of both sides of thier mouths. Casinos will tell you that slots are all random, one machine could hit a jackpot 4 times in 4 spins or not hit for days. And they don't have a clue when , or how much one will hit. But, for a time Las vegas was one state that had no minimum payout, in Mo. its 85 percent. But in vegas, if you advertize 97 percent, they have to pay that as a whole in that bank of slots. Now, sorry if I am wrong here, but somebody has got to manipulte them to make them payout that.If they didn't , and it was all random, when they didn't pay out 97 percent, they would be in trouble.Which is all that I have been saying, these sites have the ability to manipulate the rng, if they do or not is anyones opinion. But I am not gonna be an ass and tell everyone they don't know what they are talking about if they suspect something. You don't know if these sites rig shit anymore than anyone else. In a live game the cards are shuffled in front of us, and horrible beats happen, just read the wsop logs on Cardplayer. I just feel that the flops are juiced online to promote action. They would have a hard tome rigging anything, because even if they give me a winner everytime, nothing says I am gonna play those cards.
RammerJammer
Visionary
Silver Level
When reading posts on the subject of "commissions" and "regulations" and "certifications" as they apply to online poker sites, I can't help but be reminded of the glut of football handicapping magazines which hit the newstands about this time each pre-season. They all tout the "independent agencies" which monitor their advertisements for spectacular historical results in their pick percentages. The funny thing is, when you really start to dig around a bit, you find that these "monitors" are actually sitting across the hall in the same office in the same Vegas stripmall owned by the same greaseball publishers.
I totally agree that my lingering apprehensions about the legitimacy and 100% honesty of internet poker will not be completely put to rest until there is a universal gaming commission which puts its seal of approval on upright poker rooms. Everything out there right now is either completely provincial with serious limitations on its enforcement ability, or completely voluntary through contracted third-party companies. How loud can the whistle blow when it's being blown on the guys who're cutting your checks?
I totally agree that my lingering apprehensions about the legitimacy and 100% honesty of internet poker will not be completely put to rest until there is a universal gaming commission which puts its seal of approval on upright poker rooms. Everything out there right now is either completely provincial with serious limitations on its enforcement ability, or completely voluntary through contracted third-party companies. How loud can the whistle blow when it's being blown on the guys who're cutting your checks?
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xdmanx007
Legend
Bronze Level
Alright ease up guys! We can very easily resectfully disagree! I agree that we are basically taking the site's word that everything is square. But you don't see me rippin 4 Dogs simply because we don't share the same opinion? Some people choose to believe and some choose to be skeptical. I am a skeptic by nature so until I see a Western Government step up and regulate online gaming I won't scream from the mountain tops that everything is legit. Now are the larger sites most likely on the up and up absolutely, but we won't know till someone with a sound rep starts keeping tabs on them. We can only hope that the UK steps up and embraces online gaming, well they already kinda have. Just need to be more proactive. Anyways keep it respectful
my thoughts exactly put down much more elequently than I could have
AMEN... I pray to the Great ElephantRammerJammer said:
my thoughts exactly put down much more elequently than I could have
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xdmanx007
Legend
Bronze Level
OH I so believe DAVE now! I am speechless about the hands tonight on Noble just plain speechless. I am sticking to our Paid tournies there. My faith in online poker being legit is seriously fading as of late! Too many "action" hands and 2 or even 1 outers falling. I must be in horrible nightmare somebody kick me in the :bootyshak so that I wake up! JJ in hole flop come J 3 10 CALL all in for 50 bucks turn comes ACE river comes 6 opponent turn over AA please when will this stop for me!!!!!!
diabloblanco
Legend
Silver Level
Here is a sampling of 37,867 hands played at low limits on Paradise Poker. This sampling was taken by Tony Hwang and was posted on RGP newsgroup. The actual sampling contains much, much more information, however, the information below is a sample of the product in its entirety. The entire thread on RGP can be found here:
Http://www.playwinningpoker.com/rgp/02/
I suggest everyone go there and read the thread in its entirety and then make an educated judgement on the state of online poker as it pertains to the online cardrooms employing dishonest tactics in order to maximize profit or entice betting.
All suited cards dealt: 8982 (23.72%)
All suited cards expected: 8910 (23.5%)
All connected cards dealt: 5980 (15.79%)
All connected cards expected: 5940 (15.70%)
Suited connector starters dealt: 1486 (3.92%)
Suited connector starters expected: 1485 (3.92%)
Paired starters dealt: 2264 (5.979%)
Paired starters expected: 2227 (5.88%)
AKo dealt: 363 (0.959%)
AKo expected: 343 (0.905%)
AKs dealt: 98 (0.259%)
AKs expected: 114 (0.302%)
Any AK dealt: 461 (1.217%)
Any AK expected: 457 (1.21%)
Pocket Pairs
A's: 157 (0.415%)
K's: 140 (0.370%)
Q's: 184 (0.486%)
J's: 168 (0.444%)
T's: 183 (0.483%)
9's: 167 (0.441%)
8's: 185 (0.489%)
7's: 182 (0.481%)
6's: 192 (0.507%)
5's: 178 (0.470%)
4's: 186 (0.491%)
3's: 162 (0.428%)
2's: 180 (0.475%)
Each pair expected: 171 (0.452%)
Flop Analysis
Only data from hands where a flop was dealt is used in the following percentages.
Total hands dealt: 37867
Total times a flop was dealt: 35691 (94.25%)
When player dealt AK, flops at least one A or K: 154 (34.45%) Expected: 145 (32.4%)
Dealt any 2 suited cards: 8546 times
Using both hole cards the player flopped
3-Flush: 3593 (40.04%)
3-Flush: expected: 3554 (41.6%)
4-Flush: 922 (10.79%)
4-Flush Expected: 935 (10.9%)
Flush: 70 (0.82%)
Flush Expected: 72 (0.842%)
The 3 cards on the flop made:
3-Straight: 293 (3.43%)
3-Straight expected: 272 (3.18%)
2-Flush: 4698 (54.97%)
2-Flush expected: 4710 (55.1%)
3-Flush: 463 (5.42%)
3-Flush expected: 446 (5.22%)
Any Pair: 1470 (17.2%)
Any Pair expected: 1447 (16.9%)
Players Hand Flops
High card: 4453 (52.1%)
High card expected: 4497 (52.6%)
Pair: 3503 (41.0%)
Pair expected: 3453 (40.4%)
Two pair: 373 (4.36%)
Two pair expected: 345 (4.04%)
3 of a Kind: 107 (1.25%)
3 of a Kind expected: 134 (1.57%)
Straight: 32 (0.37%)
Straight Expected: 35 (0.412%)
Flush: 70 (0.82%)
Flush expected: 71 (0.835%)
Full House: 7 (0.082%)
Full House expected: 8 (0.0918%)
4 of a Kind: 1 (0.012%)
4 of a Kind expected: 1 (0.012%)
Straight Flush: 0
Straight Flush expected: 1 (0.00589%)
Royal Flush: 0
Royal Flush expected: 0
User has any pair (dealt 2196 times):
Using both hole cards flopped a:
Underpair (to flop): 523 (23.82%)
Underpair expected: 515 (23.5%)
Overpair (to flop): 496 (22.59%)
Overpair expected: 515 (23.5%)
Set: 238 (10.84%)
Set expected: 253 (11.51%)
Quads: 5 (0.228%)
Quads expected: 5 (0.228%)
As I stated, this is a small sampling of a huge amount of information gathered using poker tracking software.
Compare this real data with the few people that refuse to believe online poker isn't rigged and the ACTUAL statistical data will win out every time in the mind of a sensible player. People who use tracking software anylize and re anylize this information over and over to search their game for leaks and it is an utter impossibility that someone has never used raw data such as this to promote or prove that any site is doing anything wrong. On one hand you have real numbers, tangible evidence, and on the other you have conpiracy theorists jumping up and down claiming they saw too many "funny" hands. Which do you believe?
Http://www.playwinningpoker.com/rgp/02/
I suggest everyone go there and read the thread in its entirety and then make an educated judgement on the state of online poker as it pertains to the online cardrooms employing dishonest tactics in order to maximize profit or entice betting.
All suited cards dealt: 8982 (23.72%)
All suited cards expected: 8910 (23.5%)
All connected cards dealt: 5980 (15.79%)
All connected cards expected: 5940 (15.70%)
Suited connector starters dealt: 1486 (3.92%)
Suited connector starters expected: 1485 (3.92%)
Paired starters dealt: 2264 (5.979%)
Paired starters expected: 2227 (5.88%)
AKo dealt: 363 (0.959%)
AKo expected: 343 (0.905%)
AKs dealt: 98 (0.259%)
AKs expected: 114 (0.302%)
Any AK dealt: 461 (1.217%)
Any AK expected: 457 (1.21%)
Pocket Pairs
A's: 157 (0.415%)
K's: 140 (0.370%)
Q's: 184 (0.486%)
J's: 168 (0.444%)
T's: 183 (0.483%)
9's: 167 (0.441%)
8's: 185 (0.489%)
7's: 182 (0.481%)
6's: 192 (0.507%)
5's: 178 (0.470%)
4's: 186 (0.491%)
3's: 162 (0.428%)
2's: 180 (0.475%)
Each pair expected: 171 (0.452%)
Flop Analysis
Only data from hands where a flop was dealt is used in the following percentages.
Total hands dealt: 37867
Total times a flop was dealt: 35691 (94.25%)
When player dealt AK, flops at least one A or K: 154 (34.45%) Expected: 145 (32.4%)
Dealt any 2 suited cards: 8546 times
Using both hole cards the player flopped
3-Flush: 3593 (40.04%)
3-Flush: expected: 3554 (41.6%)
4-Flush: 922 (10.79%)
4-Flush Expected: 935 (10.9%)
Flush: 70 (0.82%)
Flush Expected: 72 (0.842%)
The 3 cards on the flop made:
3-Straight: 293 (3.43%)
3-Straight expected: 272 (3.18%)
2-Flush: 4698 (54.97%)
2-Flush expected: 4710 (55.1%)
3-Flush: 463 (5.42%)
3-Flush expected: 446 (5.22%)
Any Pair: 1470 (17.2%)
Any Pair expected: 1447 (16.9%)
Players Hand Flops
High card: 4453 (52.1%)
High card expected: 4497 (52.6%)
Pair: 3503 (41.0%)
Pair expected: 3453 (40.4%)
Two pair: 373 (4.36%)
Two pair expected: 345 (4.04%)
3 of a Kind: 107 (1.25%)
3 of a Kind expected: 134 (1.57%)
Straight: 32 (0.37%)
Straight Expected: 35 (0.412%)
Flush: 70 (0.82%)
Flush expected: 71 (0.835%)
Full House: 7 (0.082%)
Full House expected: 8 (0.0918%)
4 of a Kind: 1 (0.012%)
4 of a Kind expected: 1 (0.012%)
Straight Flush: 0
Straight Flush expected: 1 (0.00589%)
Royal Flush: 0
Royal Flush expected: 0
User has any pair (dealt 2196 times):
Using both hole cards flopped a:
Underpair (to flop): 523 (23.82%)
Underpair expected: 515 (23.5%)
Overpair (to flop): 496 (22.59%)
Overpair expected: 515 (23.5%)
Set: 238 (10.84%)
Set expected: 253 (11.51%)
Quads: 5 (0.228%)
Quads expected: 5 (0.228%)
As I stated, this is a small sampling of a huge amount of information gathered using poker tracking software.
Compare this real data with the few people that refuse to believe online poker isn't rigged and the ACTUAL statistical data will win out every time in the mind of a sensible player. People who use tracking software anylize and re anylize this information over and over to search their game for leaks and it is an utter impossibility that someone has never used raw data such as this to promote or prove that any site is doing anything wrong. On one hand you have real numbers, tangible evidence, and on the other you have conpiracy theorists jumping up and down claiming they saw too many "funny" hands. Which do you believe?
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xdmanx007
Legend
Bronze Level
Yeah I know..... but if this bad run doesn't end soon I will get too discouraged to play anything above penny poker! I expect a bad session or 2 but the long shots are are falling back to back to back... TBH If I dealt well with losing I would probably be an even shittier player than I already am. BTW I am tracking my hands and when I get enough in Poker Tracker I will run the numbers to see. have 6000 stored in there now s onot enough to tell. PLUS the site I am trackin Party I think is legit so......
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diabloblanco
Legend
Silver Level
Right on...I posted this mainly for some other members benefit, and because I'm tired of people making outrageous claims with no proof to back it up.
You are simply in a long stretch of cold cards. Look at Daniel Negreanu right now. POTY in 2004, and so far 2005 has been a tournament nightmare for him. He consistiently gets his chips in with the best of it and gets sent to the rail. It will turn around for you, we all go through it, but don't really acknowledge it until its our cards that run cold.
I had a spell about 2 years ago, sometime in 2003 around Christmas where I lost almost half my bankroll over 2 months. I couldn't catch a hand to save my life. Even with my tightening up an enormous amount, I would get my money in with the best of it, and get drawn-out on. It seemed like I had a losing night 2 out of 3 times a week for a while. No change in game (LHE and NLHE) or players in the games for the most part, just a bad, bad, brutally bad run of cards. I actually quit for 3 weeks before Christmas so I could actually enjoy the holidays, lol. After Christmas was over, I went back to the tables and was fine. Again, this post wasn't directed at you at all, I posted it in 2 threads and created one new one so that it isn't overlooked.
You are simply in a long stretch of cold cards. Look at Daniel Negreanu right now. POTY in 2004, and so far 2005 has been a tournament nightmare for him. He consistiently gets his chips in with the best of it and gets sent to the rail. It will turn around for you, we all go through it, but don't really acknowledge it until its our cards that run cold.
I had a spell about 2 years ago, sometime in 2003 around Christmas where I lost almost half my bankroll over 2 months. I couldn't catch a hand to save my life. Even with my tightening up an enormous amount, I would get my money in with the best of it, and get drawn-out on. It seemed like I had a losing night 2 out of 3 times a week for a while. No change in game (LHE and NLHE) or players in the games for the most part, just a bad, bad, brutally bad run of cards. I actually quit for 3 weeks before Christmas so I could actually enjoy the holidays, lol. After Christmas was over, I went back to the tables and was fine. Again, this post wasn't directed at you at all, I posted it in 2 threads and created one new one so that it isn't overlooked.
Four Dogs
Legend
Silver Level
Nice stats Diablo. Just about what I'd expect from a reputable site. This doesn't mean that there isn't some monkey business going on somewhere. It just shows that if your worried, you should stick to the well established certified poker rooms.
diabloblanco
Legend
Silver Level
Or don't play online. One of the two.. What gets me, is that people believe that it is rigged or juiced, yet continue to play. Is it that they truly believe that it is rigged, or that they enjoy the convinience of being able to complain that it is when they suffer a run of cold crads, get drawn out on, or just play poorly?
As I have said, there is a possibility that this type of stuff goes on. A very slim posibility in any case and even slimmer (almost nonexistant) with larger, well established sites. Some people will never change their minds as to the validity of online gambling no matter what is laid out as proof of honest practice.
As I have said, there is a possibility that this type of stuff goes on. A very slim posibility in any case and even slimmer (almost nonexistant) with larger, well established sites. Some people will never change their minds as to the validity of online gambling no matter what is laid out as proof of honest practice.
bubbasbestbabe
Suckout Queen
Silver Level
Rigged or not rigged...people will still play. They will play in the hopes of being on the rigged side. And that software I thought was site specific. You can get it for UB or party poker.
buckster436
Cardschat Hall of Famer - RIP Buck
Silver Level
I like your response, have you ever heard of ( all pokered out ) i read it somewhere and it said if your on the down side take a week off of poker, the guy who wrote it called it BEING ALL POKERED OUT its when you play so much you become all pokered out and do not play up to par>> so i think by taking 3 weeks off you did yourself some good, like you said when you started to play again all went well for you. Ive heard the pros will do this now and then and take some time away from poker. I do it ,if my play gets bad i wont play for 4 or 5 days at all and it seems to help.diabloblanco said:
buckster436:icon_chee