A poker network that charges rake by hour instead of by hand

theANMATOR

theANMATOR

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So - one of the reasons I do not play cash games is because rake is extracted on every hand played. My personal opinion - that is quite anti consumer.

When I first got into poker - I was completely shocked the online poker rooms essentially mirrored live poker rake structure.
Since I don't play cash - I'm not sure if online rake is cheaper than live - or visa-versa - but the same structure is in place, both live and online.

I wonder why their hasn't been a site (that I know of) that uses a more friendly customer related rake structure. Rake back - is customer friendly - as long as you are generating butt loads of rake for the site to begin with. It is very much like American taxes - we take 10 and give you back 3 at the end of the year - your welcome.

All sites have the same live-like rake structure, and the justification (if they have ever given one) is most likely - to stay competitive with all the other guys.

Seems to me - if a site offered something different that resulted in the players keeping more of their money - the new site with the new rake structure would make gobs of money - and steal a lot of players form the others.

Something like - a per hour percentage which resulted in the site getting paid every hour of play - but not raking every darn hand the player plays.


I have not researched this any - it was just a thought. Would like to hear others opinions on different rake structures that may have been attempted in the past.
It just seems to me - raking every hand played - is kind of like - extreme taxes - and who likes taxes? Only the tax man (government).
 
SgtStarMan

SgtStarMan

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I don't know about what's been attempted in the past in terms of online hourly rake, but I do know that for specific individuals (the hosts), more rake is better.
 
najisami

najisami

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Rake has always been collected on every hand played in live and online as far as I know. And if any other method could be more profitable, including the one you've suggested, I'm sure they would've jumped on it. Rake back or not, their main concern is to increase their profit to the maximum.
 
theANMATOR

theANMATOR

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Rake has always been collected on every hand played in live and online as far as I know. And if any other method could be more profitable, including the one you've suggested, I'm sure they would've jumped on it. Rake back or not, their main concern is to increase their profit to the maximum.
I agree with you bud, but my point is - if a site actively changed that - to be more like - we make a good amount of money - not the maximum amount - because we want our customers (players us) to be happy and benefit along with us - then I think a lot of players would move to that site.
Imagine if a site said - today all cash game players pay 5 bucks total for the entire day.

How much traffic would that generate for the site? And they would also receive 5 bucks for every player that played on that site that day. 5 dollars is arbitrary - it could be anything.
All cash game players playing under 2nl play for free etc etc.

It seems to me - all these poker sites are missing out on generating traffic to their site by offering these kind of discounts for the players.
 
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fundiver199

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I agree with you bud, but my point is - if a site actively changed that - to be more like - we make a good amount of money - not the maximum amount - because we want our customers (players us) to be happy and benefit along with us - then I think a lot of players would move to that site.

Sadly I think, you are wrong. Back in 2017 I believe, pokerstars decided to change the ancient old system of online poker, where the MTT fee was 10% in top of the buyin. Like 5$ went to the price pool and 50c was kept by the site, so a 5$ MTT was priced at 5,5$. Some sites even named it 5+0,5$ to signal, how the money was distributed. Rather than charging 5,6$ for a 5$ MTT Pokerstars retained the price at 5,5$, but now instead 60c were kept by PokerStars, and only 4,9$ went into the price pool. So in essense a 5$ MTT became a 4,9$ MTT. PokerStars did this for all micro and low stakes MTTs up to 16,5$ buyin.

This is an area, where its very easy to compare the rake between different poker sites, because unlike with cash games you dont need to find some rake table hidden away on the homepage. Its printed right there in the tournament lobby, every single time you play. To this date no other poker site has dared to do the same, and yet there are still way more people playing MTTs on PokerStars than for instance 888 Poker.

As I am writing this, I am playing MTTs on PokerStars myself, fully knowing that I pay those 20% more rake. The reason is, there is much more game selection, and its much easier to get volume. After the recent changes on 888 Poker, game selection there has unfortunately become rather limited, and while I do still sometimes play there, it has made PokerStars seem quite a bit more attractive in comparison despite the higher rake.

So in a sense DNEG was probably right, when he said, that the majority of players would not care about those extra pennies in tournament fee. The recreational players in particular certainly dont care. They just want to sit down and have some fun with software, thats easy to use, and in a safe playing environment.
 
najisami

najisami

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I agree with you bud, but my point is - if a site actively changed that - to be more like - we make a good amount of money - not the maximum amount - because we want our customers (players us) to be happy and benefit along with us - then I think a lot of players would move to that site.
Imagine if a site said - today all cash game players pay 5 bucks total for the entire day.

How much traffic would that generate for the site? And they would also receive 5 bucks for every player that played on that site that day. 5 dollars is arbitrary - it could be anything.
All cash game players playing under 2nl play for free etc etc.

It seems to me - all these poker sites are missing out on generating traffic to their site by offering these kind of discounts for the players.

I see what you mean. If only one or some of them could think out of the box ! They surely could please their players and attract a lot more.
To what you propose, I can add that they wouldn't even have to do it on a permanent basis. Implementing a free or low rake during a particular day of the week would still serve the purpose.
 
theANMATOR

theANMATOR

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Sadly I think, you are wrong. Back in 2017 I believe, PokerStars decided to change the ancient old system of online poker, where the MTT fee was 10% in top of the buyin. Like 5$ went to the price pool and 50c was kept by the site, so a 5$ MTT was priced at 5,5$. Some sites even named it 5+0,5$ to signal, how the money was distributed. Rather than charging 5,6$ for a 5$ MTT Pokerstars retained the price at 5,5$, but now instead 60c were kept by PokerStars, and only 4,9$ went into the price pool. So in essense a 5$ MTT became a 4,9$ MTT. PokerStars did this for all micro and low stakes MTTs up to 16,5$ buyin.

This is an area, where its very easy to compare the rake between different poker sites, because unlike with cash games you dont need to find some rake table hidden away on the homepage. Its printed right there in the tournament lobby, every single time you play. To this date no other poker site has dared to do the same, and yet there are still way more people playing MTTs on PokerStars than for instance 888 Poker.

As I am writing this, I am playing MTTs on PokerStars myself, fully knowing that I pay those 20% more rake. The reason is, there is much more game selection, and its much easier to get volume. After the recent changes on 888 Poker, game selection there has unfortunately become rather limited, and while I do still sometimes play there, it has made PokerStars seem quite a bit more attractive in comparison despite the higher rake.

So in a sense DNEG was probably right, when he said, that the majority of players would not care about those extra pennies in tournament fee. The recreational players in particular certainly dont care. They just want to sit down and have some fun with software, thats easy to use, and in a safe playing environment.

Thanks for your input fundiver. However I was talking about cash game rake - how they rake per hand.

I'm fully aware of how the sites I play on - rake structure is set up. Also poker stars - since most people play on that site - and anything they do regarding - well anything - is news and people discuss it.

But you said - no other site displays their rake for tourneys?
ACR does - plain as day - on every tourney they have. See attached image.

Regarding dnegs comment.
I dont pay attention to that dudes opinions on anything. He would be an awesome person to play against - with the light hearted and comical mood he brings to the table, however his opinions on most stuff seem to be totally opposite of common sense. I agree with Polk. :dontknow:
 

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Rockyfour

Rockyfour

Rock Star
That is a really good idea and I am surprised nobody has capitalized on that yet.

Like just in the fact, that's a untapped market. I know people that would for sure rather pay an hourly or something like that.

Everyone would probably play loose too, which would bring me there lol.
 
J

JimTheBadger

Rock Star
People move tables, sit out and multi table in online. Live this doesn't happen. Hourly rake isn't practical even tho it might improve player life slightly.
 
F

fundiver199

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People move tables, sit out and multi table in online. Live this doesn't happen. Hourly rake isn't practical even tho it might improve player life slightly.

Completely agree. Maybe there is some argument for charging rake per hand dealt like an ante rather than as a percent of the pot though. This would punish nits and reward people, who create action. It would be somewhat complicated to figure out, how the rake should depend on the number of players at the table though. So the current system is simpler, and since its been a tradition since the birth of online poker, it will probably not change. Of course I would also prefer less rake, but that could easily be achieved by lowering it to for instance 3% rather than the more common 5%. Which is likely also not going to happen though in an industry already struggling to remain profitable.
 
theANMATOR

theANMATOR

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People move tables, sit out and multi table in online. Live this doesn't happen. Hourly rake isn't practical even tho it might improve player life slightly.
Easy solution - each player has a timer built into his/her lobby. It wouldn't be hourly - actual on the clock - but each player has an individual timer - so it a player sits out or is just browsing the lobby while waiting for a HU opponent - they are not being charged.
Customer friendly. :)
 
R

RekterOfChildren

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I like it and dream about it daily but the history of poker shows us "no" (PokerSpot thing)

Also poker world is not ready for any changes. Because of Pokerspot and general attitude of poker community is very purist
 
spectralwave

spectralwave

Rock Star
A common way to assess the amount of a rake structure is to simply determine how much the house is taking per hour. With a time fee, this is easy to do. At $ 5 every half hour per person, she takes $ 100 an hour in a game with 10 people. As for rake, it is necessary to stipulate. Let's say you play an average of 30 hands per hour (I've heard estimates as low as 20 hands per hour recently, but that seems a little low on the tables I play at. That would imply that each dealer has only one orbit every half hour. I think that most dealers have at least a part in the second orbit, and I can't remember the last time a dealer didn't go around the table once). And let's say you pay an average $ 2.50 rake per hand (I took that number out of nowhere). At $ 2.50 per hand and 30 hands per hour, that adds up to $ 75 an hour from the table. So, the time rate is 33% higher than a serious rake. Rakes bring the added complication of how much you pay by adjusting to how many pots you play. The more pots, the more rake. If you are always a tight player, you will somehow pay less rake, as you will win fewer pots per hour, on average. If you are looser under favorable playing conditions, however, you can win more than the average number of pots per hour, and you can pay more than the average rake. In addition, if you win bigger pots (on average) than the pots you lose, you will pay more rake.
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

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Easy solution - each player has a timer built into his/her lobby. It wouldn't be hourly - actual on the clock - but each player has an individual timer - so it a player sits out or is just browsing the lobby while waiting for a HU opponent - they are not being charged.
Customer friendly. :)


I suppose this would induce customers to play many tables at a time.
Wouldn't this be extremely unfair to the newer recreational player who is 1-tabling or 2-tabling vs. others who are playing the max. number allowed?

Why not keep the same system but have a major advertising campaign showing how your site is charging 'X' % less rake than the competition &/or holding far better REWARDS (rakeback) programs that are set up to benefit all customers from new recs. to multi-tabling regs. (obviously higher volume players get greater benefits).
... in other words... somewhat similar to what they used to have on sites like Fulltilt & Pokerstars before Stars became a monopoly and took advantage of their customers.

Perhaps one of the up & coming sites could do something like this? Oh... they already are! ie. partypoker Still... I think they could do even better and REALLY promote it. (ie. 1/2 price tourney fees for the Micros & Low stakes... this would bring many regs. and then the large numbers of entrants would just bring more & more players). I think GGPoker should jump on this portion of the market. (imo)
 
G

Gusborgs22

Rock Star
I think that online rake its a little too high. In casinos they have to pay the rent, a lot of employees, dealers, water , lights, internet and a lot more.
And they only have like 200-1000 players MAX.
Online poker its too much cheaper and has like 300k players on sundays.
How much they earn with rakes in a day like sunday? Only in the last sunday million (whas an SCOOP 215$ event) there was 12.200 players. 15$ per player in rake.
Only in one event was 183.000 USD in Rake. Plus other MTTs, plus SnG, plus Spins, plus Grand Tour, plus cash games.
And even earning 1 million in one day there is a lot of things that sucks, like support, connection issues and software problems, that is unacceptable
 
theANMATOR

theANMATOR

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I suppose this would induce customers to play many tables at a time.
Wouldn't this be extremely unfair to the newer recreational player who is 1-tabling or 2-tabling vs. others who are playing the max. number allowed?

Why not keep the same system but have a major advertising campaign showing how your site is charging 'X' % less rake than the competition &/or holding far better REWARDS (rakeback) programs that are set up to benefit all customers from new recs. to multi-tabling regs. (obviously higher volume players get greater benefits).
... in other words... somewhat similar to what they used to have on sites like Fulltilt & Pokerstars before Stars became a monopoly and took advantage of their customers.

Perhaps one of the up & coming sites could do something like this? Oh... they already are! ie. Partypoker Still... I think they could do even better and REALLY promote it. (ie. 1/2 price tourney fees for the Micros & Low stakes... this would bring many regs. and then the large numbers of entrants would just bring more & more players). I think GGPoker should jump on this portion of the market. (imo)

Your on the right track PO. This is what I'm basically talking about - a site being COMPETITIVE. Making generous offers to the players - to draw in the mass of players that would jump at opportunities to save capital - to play the same games.

For rec players, or newer players who are single tabling. Possibly a tiered structure based on buy-in level, or a certain percentage based on buyin level.
So - possibly 50 cents per hour for players playing micros - if they are multi-tabling - maybe 10 cents extra per table - or something reasonable.

For higher stakes lets say 5 bucks per hour - and the more tables you play the more 'discount' you get.

I'm just thinking beyond the current system.

I will never play cash games - unless I get to the point money is meaningless to me - and then I will still grumble about how the rake is every hand played - rather than something more player friendly.

But I'm glad we are talking about several different scenarios where the sites are still collecting their big ass sacks of cash for 'hosting' the games and keeping the servers up n running, while the players get treated better - than what is common. It seems like - if the sites wanted to be competitive and blow out the casinos along the way - they would offer better rake structures - because they can.

Keep the ideas coming!
 
F

fundiver199

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As players we obviously all like to pay as little rake as possible. But poker sites are not going to decrease their rake, because we write about it in a forum. So instead the solution is to shop around for the best deal, which is actually available, and thus reward the site, which is most reasonable with its pricing. Comparing PokerStars, 888 Poker, ACR and PartyPoker, this is where, we find the best deals for different games:

* 2-5 NL cash - play on PokerStars
* 10NL+ cash - play where you get the best rakeback deal
* Up to 16,5$ MTTs - play anywhere else than PokerStars
* 22$+ MTTs - play where you get the best rakeback deal
* SnGs - Play on PartyPoker or ACR

Of course in reality rake is not the only consideration. We also need to look at game quality, game selection and the quality of software, security etc. As with other consumer products the cheapest offer is not always the best. But it is at least worth checking the cheaper offers out. If we dont do that, poker sites have no incentive to offer good rake deals :)
 
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