Poker revenue at PokerStars continues to fall

Nafor

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A funny little article contradicting itself.


"The shift in dynamics for the industry leader may suggest that poker is losing its status within the online gaming world as a whole."



"However, while the balance of power has changed at PokerStars, it’s not indicative of the industry at large."


The decrease in Q4 is probably caused by the mass walk out of pros which we saw at the end of year.

Without that incident 2018 and 2019 revenues would probably be quite close each other.


Unless PartyPoker is willing to change its pricing and payout structure I see no reason for Stars to crumble.


 
GIRFIED

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The poker industry has changed a lot in recent years, for example the rooms encourage the poker player to play casino games (the side bets are an example), by decreasing the income of PokerStars we can intuit that they will make changes in the future, only time will tell us if they are positive or negative.
 
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First- PokerStars in particular suffers from the image its become a souless entity. Little to do with the pros and ambassadors leaving/not having contracts renewed. I don’t think they added anything to the bottom line or were drawing new players at all.

PokerStars simply lacks any figurehead who is passionate about poker- so it is now just a behemoth patently leaning towards the wider gaming industry.Sort of criminal in my eyes as it remains my favorite platform to play on and should be everyone’s go to brand in terms of interface. But the impression I get is accounting has designated the actual poker as past its sell by date in the bigger mix. It’s still necessary but feels like an irritating division of the company they have to keep pretending they are injecting excitement/enthusiasm into.

Then we come to the idea of ‘casual’ players/markets and the need for and desire to capture the casual punter. Something which every site seems to now be admitting. I’ve noted this a few times before - GG poker strategy is all about this ‘casual’ player, but the party poker and others have admitted the same thing. Seems the path they are all treading - in the short term makes some sense. Its the longer term I worry about as I do not think it adds credibility for a more serious player.However, I am becoming more suspicious the poker sites aren’t so invested in serious poker or serious players anymore.

If they can fling a net far and wide and attract millions more to periodically place a few bets on sports or poker, it would appear to be less work than keeping grinders happy. It would not be my choice (poker benefits from having a 'purist' passion at its core, or at least the impression of one) but they will make their beds and lie in them regardless of what I think. Serious pokerplayers sense this which is why live poker, casinos and tours are increasingly robust - but I would hazard a guess on line poker revenues could start fluctuating in the near future more than they have done in the recent past.
 
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fundiver199

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Kind of old news. Volume has been gradually declining, since the poker boom ended 12+ years ago. But online poker will still be there tomorrow, and so will PokerStars. On a more sour note PokerStars are certainly also not doing much to get more people playing. Rake for tournaments and micro stakes STTs is very high, and rewards and promotions are almost non-existing. So its no wonder, if mostly just the grinders hold out, until eventually they can no longer beat each other, and then they stop as well.
 
Shells

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If PokerStars is looking to increase their revenue, perhaps they should return to good old poker instead of creating a gazillion different ways to lose your money by switching up the game in hopes of keeping people interested. This marketing ploy is obviously not working and they are spending more time and money on trying to be creative (which is not cheap) than sticking to what brings people to their site. And if other poker sites are managing, with few changes, why can't PokerStars? I know the poker climate changes but if they wish to stay among the top in revenue and traffic something has to give.

If the volume has gradually been declining over the past few years (mainly due to Black Friday) how do they expect to maintain their title as 'King' of poker sites if they can't keep what traffic they have now? All poker sites are pretty much in the same boat (or have been)...some have survived and recreated themselves or adjusted and some have not had the luxury of hanging around.

As far as losing a lot of their notable brand ambassadors over the past while, they may have saved a little money but in the long run, not having them there will hurt their image and possibly their traffic. Who do they have left, after all? I have to wonder if whoever is left in their barn will be looking to move elsewhere in the near future, anyway. These comments are only my observations.
 
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CriesuaID

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I hope this will get Pokerstars to focus on Poker instead of creating thousands of Poker-based "slots" with the aim of "benefiting" the casual player.
 
Joe

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As the balance of power in poker sites shifts, smaller operators and those focusing on novices are reaping the benefits. For now, PokerStars remains the biggest player in online poker. However, the industry is evolving and brands that were once small-time grinders are gradually gaining ground.

Devolution of Power in Poker Causes Revenue Slip for PokerStars


If Stars care about lost poker revenue then this might mean we get some great promotions, bonuses and sweeteners soon..!

Or....

They'll all be for new accounts only and preexisting players will be left out in the cold because they already have us as customers...

Hurray for capitalism!

:party:
 
Nafor

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One thing is good to keep in mind though - the ever increaring growth of world population. Since the Black Friday this planet has gained over 700 million new occupants. The internet has become available to more and more people over the years and people are seeking income where ever they can find it.

I believe that there will be enough customers to go around for all platforms. How attractive those customers are to game providers is another question. Unless we see some monumental change in govermental regulation towards online gambling also in Europe, the future of poker will be profitable for those who keep improving their game.
 
Vallet

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Sports betting brings more revenue to companies. People bet and hope for luck. You don't need to learn anything. This is much easier than outwitting another person in a poker hand.
 
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Shells – agree with a lot of your points.

That said, personally I think PokerStars perhaps needs a really passionate figurehead rather than ‘ambassadors’. Someone who is seen to be leading the company with a deep interest in poker.

The ambassadors were doing a mediocre to poor job (I’ll concede ambassadors could do a better job if used effectively). However, the likes of Negreanu were in the role at the absolute peak of their popularity whilst this decline was taking place. That speaks volumes. As for others such Boeree and Kurganov...I don’t think they ever drew anyone. And this is not a knock on poker players specifically, I find the entire marketing lacking and misdirected. The only person I would credit doing sterling work is Chris Moneymaker who has been all over the States playing at local tourneys (again, this is great PR but hardly driving new players to the site).

Let’s not forget...they featured Renaldo (Brazilian) then Renaldo (Portuguese) both world class football players and of the highest profiles...but why was this thought of as attracting people to play? What is the rationale? Then they brought in Kevin Hart for heavens sake. Hart being little more than loud and shouty at the table accomplished what? Nothing.

The game is complex and needs to grow organically at grassroots level - something no one seems bothered with. To flourish poker needs people with long term vision and a passion for more than next quarters bottomline...and therein lies the rub. Everything we are witnessing of late seems designed to turn a fast buck and people sense as much.

As Vallet said...Sports betting brings more revenue to companies. People bet and hope for luck. You don't need to learn anything. This is much easier than outwitting another person in a poker hand.

I think this might be the thing we need to face, that serious players are being gently marginalized. As long as the infrastructure remains... all is good...perhaps not as 'purist' as some of us would like, but I think we will have to keep reminding ourselves we might not be the target demographic.
 
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Shells

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Shells – agree with a lot of your points.

That said, personally I think PokerStars perhaps needs a really passionate figurehead rather than ‘ambassadors’. Someone who is seen to be leading the company with a deep interest in poker.


Thanks, DS. And like most times, I agree with a lot of what you had stated, too. :)

Why don't they just ask all of us? We can certainly let PokerStars know we can see what's happening! (a bit of sarcasm there) ;) :)

Also, a 'passionate figurehead' would likely be the best answer to redirect the company. When I took a peek at the ambassadors' list, I hope I would not be alone in stating I did not recognize about 95% of the list as notables - maybe I should recognize, but I do not. When I do look at the list (which isn't often) it's rare to see more than one or 2 on the site.

So, brings me to, what are the poker pros gaining? What is PokerStars gaining? PokerStars could clean house and aside from Moneymaker, Lex Veldhuis, Ben Spragg, Arlie Shaban (I know of him because he is Canadian :)) Who's left? So, you are likely right - the ambassadors really don't have a 'job' to promote PokerStars, or at least it doesn't appear so. Cut 'em loose and put the money into someone who really sees a future with poker - but that will not happen, at least not yet. Instead, they may continue to recreate the game or add shiny things to possibly attract or keep the existing traffic?

Oh and Chris Moneymaker likely will be a lifer with Stars providing they can keep his face out there and his travel/appearances around the USA potentially keeps people/poker players coming to live events given the majority of the USA is not able to play on the site for real money.

(sorry for the longwindedness :))
 
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I think that the Stars need only three things to return to their former positions! The first normal transparent loyalty scheme (chests is simply laughter). A good bonus system for new players and the latest promotions and freerolls to attract recreational players! A technical support from them, and so in the first place!
 
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ronn6583

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Poker income is falling, and sports betting income is growing.
This is a development vector that excludes poker from the first position.
Based on this information, one should not expect any improvement for poker - this does not fit into the accepted development goals of the company.
Poker is more expensive than sports and casino bets.
Changes will follow only if, with a drop in poker income, a fall in income from sports and casino bets follows. That is, if there is a direct correlation between them.
At the moment, such a correlation is not observed.
 
theRaven68

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PS management is wandering but it seems that is correlated with the online poker global downswing
 
okeedokalee

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Online poker might get busier because of the virus. In a crowded casino the virus is spreadable, online you are safe from infection.
 
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Shells - you are never long winded and always make salient points! I agree with all you said (in reply).

I think 'ambassadors' could work but their use/application needs to be more interactive and social with the average player. Not too long ago (EPT Monaco last year?) they had a live side tourney where various PokerStars members could play with ambassadors/representatives ( Velhius, Moneymaker etc.) for charity. It was very good fun and a pleasure to watch. I thought at the time these should be rolling events, on-line and live that PS features all the time, perhaps weekly.

Another thought -I think they need a hundred and one of these ideas all based on customer engagement through a passionate CEO- is to go back to a broad spread freerolls to encourage an expanding customer base. We here are members of the CC FR club and that is wonderful. However, PS could broaden their range of FRs offered to great effect. Take the Platinum Madness FR they recently staged - it attracted 62,000+ entrants as a one off.

About a year and a half ago PS staged daily FRs for several weeks and the fields were running at between 6K and 10K round the clock. The payouts were to a broad number of players and obviously everyone loved playing them -the min cashes were small at 10 cents but that wasn't the point. People felt engaged and that the site was being generous and embracing( not to mention that basically all these 'payouts' stay within their financial infrastructure).

I also think PokerStars and the wider industry have remained clueless when it comes to social media and, again, those who project a warmth and passion for the game.

On a weekly basis Andrew Neeme has around 100,000 viewers to his blog. His partner in 'meet up games' Brad Owen is heading for 200,000 weekly viewers. Together they are staging meet up games all over the States, seem to have secured a regular tourney each month in LA and just got back from their first international tourney held at Aspers London. At venues wherever they stage, they are regularly getting as many as 20+ full ring tables playing as so many love the friendly atmosphere.

Then you have more recent vloggers such as Ryan DePaulo who is also gaining between 30k and 60k viewers per episode uploaded. Funny as hell, he is constantly getting into trouble for filming in casinos...and if that doesn't underline a rift between casinos and their potential customers, I do not know what would.

In short, it's my belief poker needs to be thought of as a stand alone product within gaming - it is so unique and distinct, and so are poker players to a large degree. Yes, they might indulge in sports betting also but the there is a unique/separate skill set applied to poker.

That is what PokerStars needs to understand and keep appealing to. The more poker gets folded into a general gaming and a casual player envelope, the more passionate players will feel alienated and that they amount to little more than an income stream (and one which is taken for granted).

In the interim Neeme and Owen, with little more than a camera and passion are having hundreds show up for meet up games on virtually a weekly basis on the East Coast, West Coast, Texas, Las Vegas, London...
 
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0546474

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Be that as it may, Stars PokerStars is still the leader and may well dictate the conditions in the poker market and change its strategy. The leader always has more room for maneuver !!!
 
antonis32123

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Well , it's very strange . They have increased rake , they do everything possible to maximise profits and they don't want/allow overlays ,the have stopped countless daily freerolls , or special freerolls during some events , they have ''fired'' and get rid of so many expensive PRO sponsorships , maybe also cut the advertisement expenses ???etc , etc, etc. Most players keep on playing there ... Tournaments seem to go well ...Why do they have less profits :confused::confused::confused: ???


Free social mobile poker platform ???:D sth like zynga or yahoo poker in the past ?? I wish I could turn back time and not play some cr** free social games and play real money poker from the beginning (or other real money games , at the worst case more videogames LOL ) or erase from my memory the ''poker '' hands from some social poker games . They really burn your mind , destroy anything good you might know about poker , lol... And they have so many profits by these hyper-donk fake poker players-customers , those so called free platforms .... so free ....... :rolleyes: that's rediculous ......
 
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fundiver199

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Why do they have less profits

Because over time less and less people are playing online poker, and they are also playing for less money, which mean they are paying less rake. Even on PokerStars high stakes cash games have become a desert. Specifically when comparing Q4 2019 to Q4 2018 it also has an effect, that Stars limited each player to 4 traditional cash tables at a time instead of 24. This move caused cash game volume to decline, which Stars was fully aware of, when they made the change.

Why then are less people playing online poker for less money? Well first off their was a boom 15 years ago, where poker reached a level of popularity, which could just not be sustained. So to some extend it has simply been reversing back to mean ever since. In top of that online poker has lost the interest of novelty, and finally more and more governments are preventing people from playing. In 2018 PokerStars had to leave Australia for instance. Any other industry would likely also be losing revenue, if more and more governments made its products illegal.
 
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chuckycheese

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First- PokerStars in particular suffers from the image its become a souless entity. Little to do with the pros and ambassadors leaving/not having contracts renewed. I don’t think they added anything to the bottom line or were drawing new players at all.

PokerStars simply lacks any figurehead who is passionate about poker- so it is now just a behemoth patently leaning towards the wider gaming industry.Sort of criminal in my eyes as it remains my favorite platform to play on and should be everyone’s go to brand in terms of interface. But the impression I get is accounting has designated the actual poker as past its sell by date in the bigger mix. It’s still necessary but feels like an irritating division of the company they have to keep pretending they are injecting excitement/enthusiasm into.

Then we come to the idea of ‘casual’ players/markets and the need for and desire to capture the casual punter. Something which every site seems to now be admitting. I’ve noted this a few times before - GG poker strategy is all about this ‘casual’ player, but the Party Poker and others have admitted the same thing. Seems the path they are all treading - in the short term makes some sense. Its the longer term I worry about as I do not think it adds credibility for a more serious player.However, I am becoming more suspicious the poker sites aren’t so invested in serious poker or serious players anymore.

If they can fling a net far and wide and attract millions more to periodically place a few bets on sports or poker, it would appear to be less work than keeping grinders happy. It would not be my choice (poker benefits from having a 'purist' passion at its core, or at least the impression of one) but they will make their beds and lie in them regardless of what I think. Serious pokerplayers sense this which is why live poker, casinos and tours are increasingly robust - but I would hazard a guess on line poker revenues could start fluctuating in the near future more than they have done in the recent past.
all i can say is i wish pokerstars was in indiana i miss them
 
umyt

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I'm new to the poker world and I didn't like PokerStars
 
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all i can say is i wish pokerstars was in indiana i miss them


I hear you chuckycheese.

Whatever the downside to PS I still appreciate the ability to play- their interface/game selection remains my favorite if nothing else.
 
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pjokay

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The loyalty system on Stars has got worse and worse which I am sure has had an impact. Remember when if you reached Gold status you got an entry into $100,000 freeroll? That was amazing. Now you get a few gold coins of little use.

And as Shells and some others have mentioned I really do not like all these other gambling tactics they are muddling poker with such as side bets. I would have thought most poker players want a game of skill. Things such as these side bets are more like casino games and I do not like them forcing it onto the poker tables which should be for poker, we can all go to the casino rooms and play jack pots if we want that rubbish!
 
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