WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
OP never even said it was a new regulation or that it was passed to outlaw HUDs. The law he cited was passed about 25 years ago. Long before online poker or even the web.
hobonc
Visionary
Silver Level
I rarely multi-table more than two tables so maybe ^^^^^ this is why I don't feel the info is all that advantageous to me. I will admit that I take notes on players when I see certain characteristics. Especially new ones who I don't recall. You could argue this is a rudimentary "HUD".
We are talking about your computer logging our play on it's hard drive and not it retrieving this information and then distributing it across the entire tracking software platform to all it's subscribers aren't we?
(Damn, it's 12:20 here, I have to get up at 6:30, lol.) I'll check back on the thread tomorrow.
Michael Paler
Legend
Silver Level
You just use whatever excuse you need to in order to back right on out of this, that is just A-ok by me. Whatever gets you your beauty sleep, really. I mean, I think its pretty clear you just do not react well unless being agreed with. I was trying to have a discussion, but I do not think you are open to that.
Say, perhaps you should petition CC and get "fish" like me and others who do not have your level of poker expertise kicked off of this forum so you and the other poker gods can have it all to yourselves and not be bothered with the less informed. I mean, the last thing you need when you are standing around without any clothes on is some smart-azz claiming you are walking around naked, right? After all, you are not naked, you just do not have any clothes on.
Matter of fact, I might just take a little vacation from CC, as I am growing weary of having everything I say ripped to shreds by all-knowing geniuses like you two every time I post a response or start a thread.
Too many just suck the fun right out of being a member, really.
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
Who are you referring to?
Blobweird123
CC's very own Dead Head
Silver Level
Dude really? You are the reason its not fun at CC in threads like this. You are just mocking the crap out of anyone and everyone, yet you provide NOTHING to the actual questions your presented with. Several just told you it doesn't pertain to OLP and yet you ignore that and keep bashing. You do this in every single thread you get involved in that shows any form of debated opinions. Enough man!
D
Dr Damage
Rising Star
Bronze Level
You know I've heard all these kind of points/arguments many times about all kinds of online games. Poker is a big one because it is mostly for real money which tends to elicit one of the strongest human emotions of all, greed.
Now I don't really consider myself a excellent poker player but I don't think I'm an idiot/fish either. I'm probably in the group that would benefit most from using these type of tools but I don't choose to use them. I don't even a little believe they have ANY value as a "learning tool", quite the opposite in fact. People are inherently lazy and if something is going to calculate pot/implied odds in real time, track and give probability of player actions based on even small sample sets. Why would I want to do this if I didn't have to? Why would I even think I could EVER become as efficient at it as a a computer? I think it definitely qualifies as an advantage.
The customary argument to whether it is an advantage or not is usually something like Well its NOT an unfair advantage. Anyone can use XXXXXX. The problem here is many people don't want to use these kind of tools.
The point which was made about not being cool to show up at at wsop major with a computer to make recommendations and calculations is a great one. Maybe you should be able to use thermographic camera to detect opponents body temperature and an ultrasonic microphone to get real time feed back on their heart rate while we are at it. You know just to learn how to detect tells better.
OK that is over the top but just to illustrate the point.
I don't have any brick and mortar poker places near me and I'd probably just lose a bunch of money there if I did. But I'd sure be uncomfortable if I went to one and there was a file on every player which ever played there freely available to anyone you may be playing against at any time with a push of a button. Like your sitting there with a 1000 bucks in the pot and your opponent calls for your file Say a file containing your overall win rate, fold rate, favorite starting hands from different positions and such... I can guarantee my game aint good enough to have that all over the place
Secondly and probably my biggest issue with these kind of tools is that many of those tools rely on interfaces and software hooks which in my opinion the poker site should be doing all kinds of things to randomize/change and conceal this information every bit as much as my banking information. These interfaces are far to easily exploited for CRIMINAL activities and are ideally suited for interfacing with bots and perhaps even worse larger collusion groups. It quickly becomes trivial to make it that you would be the only person at the table which didn't have the knowledge of ALL the other hole cards which have been dealt all within seconds. Definitely makes their decision whether to call that all in of yours or not a lot easier. If a site is being public about exposing these hooks, I have concerns with that.
To be clear I'm not saying that everyone using that software is cheating but, I'm confident that if it can be done at all... someone/many IS/ARE doing it.
I'd like a site to implement an anonymous/randomized lobby. Meaning I click the game type, buy in and player count I want to play and they can put me in a que randomly grab enough people to make a game and have at it... It should NOT be possible for me to sit down at a sit and go with my 3 or 4 friends, and yet it is easy to do. I'd be happy to pay more rake for it too!
I'm not saying it should be law or anything, but why would anyone have a problem with a site moving in that direction? If you don't like it, you don't have to play there. I know that's going to get me attacked by U.S. players as I understand that the first site moving that direction is one of the easier sites for you guys to play on but that's a different issue.
While they are at it they could eject any player that sit out more than 3 rounds and take the chips out of the game too.
Anyway I think the most telling sign in these type of discussion is how strongly people cling to what is being taken away. In my experience people don't tend to cling to things which don't give them at least some benefit/value. It always amazes me how strongly people argue to keep something they don't use and don't get any advantage from...
I am definitely NOT trying to fuel any fires here just expressing my sincere opinion on the matter. I will say though that I will definitely play at the site that I believe is most diligent in deterring any type of cheating no matter how small or "grey" they cheating is.
Now I don't really consider myself a excellent poker player but I don't think I'm an idiot/fish either. I'm probably in the group that would benefit most from using these type of tools but I don't choose to use them. I don't even a little believe they have ANY value as a "learning tool", quite the opposite in fact. People are inherently lazy and if something is going to calculate pot/implied odds in real time, track and give probability of player actions based on even small sample sets. Why would I want to do this if I didn't have to? Why would I even think I could EVER become as efficient at it as a a computer? I think it definitely qualifies as an advantage.
The customary argument to whether it is an advantage or not is usually something like Well its NOT an unfair advantage. Anyone can use XXXXXX. The problem here is many people don't want to use these kind of tools.
The point which was made about not being cool to show up at at wsop major with a computer to make recommendations and calculations is a great one. Maybe you should be able to use thermographic camera to detect opponents body temperature and an ultrasonic microphone to get real time feed back on their heart rate while we are at it. You know just to learn how to detect tells better.
OK that is over the top but just to illustrate the point.I don't have any brick and mortar poker places near me and I'd probably just lose a bunch of money there if I did. But I'd sure be uncomfortable if I went to one and there was a file on every player which ever played there freely available to anyone you may be playing against at any time with a push of a button. Like your sitting there with a 1000 bucks in the pot and your opponent calls for your file
Say a file containing your overall win rate, fold rate, favorite starting hands from different positions and such... I can guarantee my game aint good enough to have that all over the placeSecondly and probably my biggest issue with these kind of tools is that many of those tools rely on interfaces and software hooks which in my opinion the poker site should be doing all kinds of things to randomize/change and conceal this information every bit as much as my banking information. These interfaces are far to easily exploited for CRIMINAL activities and are ideally suited for interfacing with bots and perhaps even worse larger collusion groups. It quickly becomes trivial to make it that you would be the only person at the table which didn't have the knowledge of ALL the other hole cards which have been dealt all within seconds. Definitely makes their decision whether to call that all in of yours or not a lot easier. If a site is being public about exposing these hooks, I have concerns with that.
To be clear I'm not saying that everyone using that software is cheating but, I'm confident that if it can be done at all... someone/many IS/ARE doing it.
I'd like a site to implement an anonymous/randomized lobby. Meaning I click the game type, buy in and player count I want to play and they can put me in a que randomly grab enough people to make a game and have at it... It should NOT be possible for me to sit down at a sit and go with my 3 or 4 friends, and yet it is easy to do. I'd be happy to pay more rake for it too!
I'm not saying it should be law or anything, but why would anyone have a problem with a site moving in that direction? If you don't like it, you don't have to play there. I know that's going to get me attacked by U.S. players as I understand that the first site moving that direction is one of the easier sites for you guys to play on but that's a different issue.
While they are at it they could eject any player that sit out more than 3 rounds and take the chips out of the game too.
Anyway I think the most telling sign in these type of discussion is how strongly people cling to what is being taken away. In my experience people don't tend to cling to things which don't give them at least some benefit/value. It always amazes me how strongly people argue to keep something they don't use and don't get any advantage from...
I am definitely NOT trying to fuel any fires here just expressing my sincere opinion on the matter. I will say though that I will definitely play at the site that I believe is most diligent in deterring any type of cheating no matter how small or "grey" they cheating is.
hackmeplz
Sleep Faster
Silver Level
lol.
And sorry I read the rest of your post too, but you are so misinformed on what a HUD does that I'd be wasting my time replying. Read up on what a hud actually does and get back to me.
But yeah if you realize that using software such as this would help you and you choose not to, hate to break it to you but yeah you're probably a fish.
And seriously stop comparing live poker to online poker. Live poker is not online poker, and as I mentioned anyone who uses a hud for online poker wouldn't need one for live poker. Trust me I'm getting far more info if I'm at your table live than I would be from a hud. The hud might give me slightly more accurate numbers but let's compare the info I'd have:
with hud:
16.557/11.8837 with a 3.9947% 3-bet and fold to 3-bet of 62.3384%
with my observation 1-tabling:
kinda taggy doesn't seem very positionally aware, 3-bets mostly value hands including some good broadways. He likes to make pot sized bets with strong hands on vulnerable boards while smaller bets are usually probe bets which he will fold to further pressure with. He fastplays all his good hands when he checks he's folding super often. He's clearly not rolled for this game as when pots get big he gets nervous and he takes a lot of lines to just "take the pot down" when he has the nuts.
See how all a hud does is give me basic info while observing them would give me a ton more info? Now I personally do some off the table research on opponents using my tracker, so I actually do have some of those reads on players I play with every day, but that has nothing to do with the hud.
A hud is to compensate for me not being able to observe much at all when I'm on 16 tables. Now you can argue that should be my handicap for playing that many tables and it's kinda legit but I haven't heard that argument once here...
Poker Orifice
Fully Tilted
Platinum Level
AGREED!!
I stopped responding on any of this guy's posts (but am glad you guys have found them).
One huge pile of it imo!
Zorba
27
Platinum Level
+1 well said.
D
Dr Damage
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Kind of odd that you saw any value in quoting that one little snip of that post, but anyway.
I wasn't really making any direct comparison of online versus personal poker at all but I'm sure we get the point of information relating to the opponent being important to ANY kind of poker and the fact that if more people were aware of exactly how much of an advantage any of these "tools" can be, they may not bother at all.
Seriously, your indicating your a super player. You would probably be one of the many that would be the first to analyze decision making based on fractions of a percent of the probability of cards versus other cards. I mean if "YOU" are playing 10 tables at a time, then the difference between 10.1:1 or 10.2:1 pot odds could be quite significant over time whereas even the best math guy would likely call it "about 10:1"... even in the simplest form of the HUD it equates to an advantage. Absolutely or we wouldn't even be hearing about it.
But really I wasn't specifically talking about the "HUD" aka Heads up Display and more specifically I mentioned my unhappiness with the "hooks" which are required to be there to make the various HUDs work. Even if YOU only use the minimal function for relatively benign purposes, the fact remains that many will/are abusing the functionality.
Some say they only want to be able to make notes on players... OK but more often than not ALL the notes are being thrown into one big cesspool which people subscribing to certain services retrieve ALL history from ANY player whether you have ever sat at a table with that person or not.
And those are trivial concerns that we all just accept, much the same way as were mostly OK with the majority of athletes on our favorite teams using performance enhancing drugs as it makes the entertainment so much better.
However one can not reasonably ignore the fact that having the interfaces for this type of software opens the door for interfacing more advanced software because if the information is available for display it is available to be processed and once processed it is possible to act on automatically or transmit easily to a network of drones or whatever...
Nobody is trying to take your pen/paper and calculator away, and I specifically said I don't care if those kind of tools are outlawed or not. I simply stated that I really wouldn't care as long as one site actively prevented their use you'd never get to use them in a game I was playing cause I'd never play anywhere else.
And as I said before I never heard of anyone defending one of these tools they didn't want to keep, and the only reason I can see for you wanting to keep it is if it IS providing you a benefit you want to keep.
Walk in a casino with your HUD or simailar device which gives an identical advantage to their BJ tables and see if their OK with it. If you are allowed back in, I'll shut up.
If your getting benefit while using it legitimately, imagine the benefit when using the interface as I'm saying its being used.
Blobweird123
CC's very own Dead Head
Silver Level
You're doing the same thing people were arguing with MP about. HUDs don't do this. Maybe some do, but certainly not PT4 or HM2. Carbon Odds calculator does and its also has a HUD, but that isnt part of the HUD, its a seperate part of the software, and quite frankly its useless. It gives you odds vs ATC which im sure you can figure that out on your own quite easily. And 10.1:1 pot odds vs 10.2 in the long run still ain't makin a damn lol.
dmorris68
Legend
Loyaler
Well I did post enough for 2 people, so maybe he's just referring to me.
EvertonGirl
Professional Fish
Loyaler
I had the HM2 on trial, my computer did not like it and neither did I, I never got it to work on PS for the tournaments I was playing, It only started to work on FT with a few days of the trail remaining lol.
It worked on Carbon but the stats were never next to the right person, it was like 2 places away.
The major reason I did not like it was every time I opened HM my computer froze because of all the CPU the damn thing was using!!! After the trial ended it was time to say farewell to the annoying, never working right HM and good riddance!!!
It worked on Carbon but the stats were never next to the right person, it was like 2 places away.
The major reason I did not like it was every time I opened HM my computer froze because of all the CPU the damn thing was using!!! After the trial ended it was time to say farewell to the annoying, never working right HM and good riddance!!!
dmorris68
Legend
Loyaler
There are lots of valid reasons for not wanting to run a tracker/HUD. Despite Michael's insistence that I'm insulting people because they aren't software experts (LOL), I fully recognize some people are software-averse, whether because they're not comfortable with it, they don't understand how to use it and don't care to, or their systems just can't support it. Among several other reasons that have been presented in this thread.
And to be clear, it's fine if your opinion is that trackers/HUDs should not be used. I have no problem with that opinion, as long as you realize if you publicly express it and don't back it up with a logical argument, people are going to call you out on it. What I do have a problem with is disinformation presented under the guise of "opinion" or even fact, because it misleads new members who are just learning about this stuff. I'm all for spirited debate, presenting opposing viewpoints and allowing people to make up their own minds based on facts and opinions born of experience. Michael likes to make much of my reference to "uneducated" opinions as if I'm claiming intellectual superiority or something. Which is a typical straw man argument. When you have a weak defense, zero in and attach a nefarious motive to emotionally charged words, rather than actually address the points of the discussion directly.
As far as me not wanting to have a "discussion," I think most would agree I did a fair bit of discussion here. Too much, in fact! Michael, you seem to be the one taking this personally, not me. If you think I'm angry or somehow averse to debate, then you don't know me very well. I'm not the one who said he was bowing out. I don't get angry on forums or message boards. Frustrated or impatient maybe, even tilted sometimes, but not angry. I've been participating and running forums across a wide variety of fields for more than a decade, dating back before the age of the public internet. You'd be hard pressed to find someone with thicker online skin than me.
And to be clear, it's fine if your opinion is that trackers/HUDs should not be used. I have no problem with that opinion, as long as you realize if you publicly express it and don't back it up with a logical argument, people are going to call you out on it. What I do have a problem with is disinformation presented under the guise of "opinion" or even fact, because it misleads new members who are just learning about this stuff. I'm all for spirited debate, presenting opposing viewpoints and allowing people to make up their own minds based on facts and opinions born of experience. Michael likes to make much of my reference to "uneducated" opinions as if I'm claiming intellectual superiority or something. Which is a typical straw man argument. When you have a weak defense, zero in and attach a nefarious motive to emotionally charged words, rather than actually address the points of the discussion directly.
As far as me not wanting to have a "discussion," I think most would agree I did a fair bit of discussion here. Too much, in fact! Michael, you seem to be the one taking this personally, not me. If you think I'm angry or somehow averse to debate, then you don't know me very well. I'm not the one who said he was bowing out. I don't get angry on forums or message boards. Frustrated or impatient maybe, even tilted sometimes, but not angry. I've been participating and running forums across a wide variety of fields for more than a decade, dating back before the age of the public internet. You'd be hard pressed to find someone with thicker online skin than me.
P
PlayedYou73
Visionary
Silver Level
I think people are missing out on the OP's original point, and how myself and others have pointed out that this rule clearly does not apply to playing online poker at home in Nevada. Your home is not a licensed gaming establishment.
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
Again the law the OP quoted was written in 1989. So there is ZERO chance it was written to stop players from using HUDs.
I also believe there is ZERO chance that it could be applied to HUDs for online poker although I could see it being used to prevent newer tech (think HUD for Google glasses) from being used in NV poker rooms.
I also believe there is ZERO chance that it could be applied to HUDs for online poker although I could see it being used to prevent newer tech (think HUD for Google glasses) from being used in NV poker rooms.
JusSumguy
Chipmonger
Silver Level
Emperor IX
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Well, technically it says that it bans anything that calculates the probabilities of things happening. Arguably (horrible argument, but argument nonetheless), a well sourced hud with a good sample to draw from calculates the probabilities of certain tendencies to happen from certain players. I'm all for huds being allowed, personally.
If people are for "levelling the playing field" then I say make JJ worth nothing. At least I'll lose less money with it.
Also, another point people are bringing up: "Licensed gaming establishment" is obviously not referring to your bedroom. However, software that you're using is operating AS a licensed gaming establishment, therefore I would expect any laws that applied before to apply now to online sites unless specifically stated otherwise.
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PlayedYou73
Visionary
Silver Level
We can all punt this issue back and forth, but from my own personal legal experience, "words" and the definition of words matter. A simple verb, adjective, or preposition can change the entire meaning of a sentence.
The phrase at issue is this "... for any person at a licensed gaming establishment". The word "at" is defined as "Expressing location or arrival in a particular place or position". The phrase as written, and from a plain English interpretation clearly indicates we are talking about physical human beings at a physical location that is defined as a licensed gaming establishment.
The only reason I'm mentioning this, is that there are laws on the books that are challenged "all the time" because of what might appear to be something trivial. But the thing is, is that it is not trivial to someone facing criminal charges, and in many of those cases, judges would throw the charges out rather then convict someone of a criminal offence (with all the baggage that goes with it) because of a vaguely worded law that is being applied to a new situation.
I guess we'll see if and when someone is actually convicted of breaking this law by using PT4 or HEM in Nevada.
The phrase at issue is this "... for any person at a licensed gaming establishment". The word "at" is defined as "Expressing location or arrival in a particular place or position". The phrase as written, and from a plain English interpretation clearly indicates we are talking about physical human beings at a physical location that is defined as a licensed gaming establishment.
The only reason I'm mentioning this, is that there are laws on the books that are challenged "all the time" because of what might appear to be something trivial. But the thing is, is that it is not trivial to someone facing criminal charges, and in many of those cases, judges would throw the charges out rather then convict someone of a criminal offence (with all the baggage that goes with it) because of a vaguely worded law that is being applied to a new situation.
I guess we'll see if and when someone is actually convicted of breaking this law by using PT4 or HEM in Nevada.
hobonc
Visionary
Silver Level
In other words, How clever your lawyers are.
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
Googling NRS 465.075, it looks like this is an ongoing section of Nev Gaming regs which can and has been frequently updated thru many years.
The section in OP looks like an attempt to prohibit hand held devices. Like programmable Calculators which were available in the late 80's.
Other sections mention other things of interest to us, and include software and 'any game offered by a licensed establishment'.
Really what this all means is that we can expect the Nev Gaming people to keep a pretty sharp eye on things developing in Nevada. No one is gonna put anything over on these guys for long.
The section in OP looks like an attempt to prohibit hand held devices. Like programmable Calculators which were available in the late 80's.
Other sections mention other things of interest to us, and include software and 'any game offered by a licensed establishment'.
Really what this all means is that we can expect the Nev Gaming people to keep a pretty sharp eye on things developing in Nevada. No one is gonna put anything over on these guys for long.
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PlayedYou73
Visionary
Silver Level
Well yes and no, and I think it's more related to how "competent" your lawyers are.
I don't believe that people should be prosecuted for doing something that isn't a crime at the time they are alleged to have done it.
A competent/clever lawyer would point this out.