hobonc
Visionary
Silver Level
I didn't say anything about trackers, I said HUD's. Trust me when I say I'm no so ignorant that I don't know the difference.
I didn't say anything about trackers, I said HUD's. Trust me when I say I'm no so ignorant that I don't know the difference.
dmorris68
Legend
Loyaler
They're virtually synonymous. All trackers included HUDs. The HUDs report the stats captured by the trackers.
Tell me: What exactly do you understand about HUDs? How they work, and how they're used? Impress me and I'll freely admit that I misjudged you here.
Actually no, it's the trackers that catch cheating. The UB/AP scams and countless collusion incidents were discovered by players using trackers.
hobonc
Visionary
Silver Level
Assuming the law was written before the OL poker bill passed in NV then undoubtedly so. If that is indeed the case it looks like the lawyers have smelled blood in the water if you know what I mean.
hobonc
Visionary
Silver Level
Well if I used them I'd be glad to but as I said I don't use them. I also didn't say they can't help you or anyone else. I just gave my opinion so I'm not sure what it is you wish to judge.
Let's put it a different way. Say you took two reasonably intelligent people who didn't know how to work with numbers. You give one a calculator and the other a pencil and paper. The learning curve for the calculator may be steeper but I would bet that the paper pencil guy will retain the knowledge at a similar, if not a more deep level (for lack of a better description) than the calculator.
Michael Paler
Legend
Silver Level
Well, lucky you, I am extremely computer literate, as that is a major part of my career. So if I did not love software, I would be royally screwed, lol. But you do not have to be a computer genius to know what poker tracking software is or does. You do have to understand poker and what info can and cannot be used to an advantage. Wow, I keep hearing that claim, so it seems to me that either some folks just do not understand how it could be used to take advantage of other players or just refuse to admit that it can.
I mean, are you simply saying that there just is no way on earth to have an unfair advantage using tracking software of any type whatsoever? If that is the case, then is the Carbon description of what their tracker can do for a players game a misleading statement you think? Are they lying, in your opinion? I mean, I pulled that quote right off the sites page, I did not make it up. They certainly believe it can be used to beat your competition; and not in a way that indicates you do so by simply learning to play better! I can certainly explain and show you exactly how it can be used unfairly though. If you just do not agree it can be used for an unfair advantage, we can agree to disagree. That is fair enough.
Only, please tell me where you pulled that quote from Bovada! I honestly think you might have mistakenly taken that out of context. That makes no sense at all to me. If you think about it; maybe they simply do not want players who are only good because of the software they claim is not used for an unfair advantage or needed to win, yet at the same time bemoaning the fact they cannot use it? That was the exact impression I got from Bovada, certainly not that they simply do not want good players. They gave me the impression that they are catering to those who want to play a casual game absent of software users who play by the computer, not on it.
dmorris68
Legend
Loyaler
Maybe judge is a harsh word, but then again I'm not casting aspersions on something without knowing anything about it.
Nothing whatsoever wrong with being ignorant -- we're all ignorant of something, nobody is born knowing what a HUD is. Nor is there anything wrong with just not wanting to use one. Personal taste, whatever.
What I do have a problem with are the claims and implication that HUDs are (pick one): cheating; a crutch; make a bad player into a good one; hurting poker; can't be used in live games so why should they be used online; etc. etc. when it's obvious those people don't understand them. By your own admission, you've not used them, so I'm not sure why you'd be suggesting that they shouldn't be allowed.
And obviously NV gaming regulations were developed way before online games were legalized. The regulations themselves read exactly like live rules and don't take into account the online aspect of poker, which is an entirely different game than live.
Nothing whatsoever wrong with being ignorant -- we're all ignorant of something, nobody is born knowing what a HUD is. Nor is there anything wrong with just not wanting to use one. Personal taste, whatever.
What I do have a problem with are the claims and implication that HUDs are (pick one): cheating; a crutch; make a bad player into a good one; hurting poker; can't be used in live games so why should they be used online; etc. etc. when it's obvious those people don't understand them. By your own admission, you've not used them, so I'm not sure why you'd be suggesting that they shouldn't be allowed.
And obviously NV gaming regulations were developed way before online games were legalized. The regulations themselves read exactly like live rules and don't take into account the online aspect of poker, which is an entirely different game than live.
Michael Paler
Legend
Silver Level
I posted the entire email response they sent me. Here is what they said;
"Jake (Player Care)
Jul 14 03:57 (PDT)
Heya Michael,
Thanks for fighting the good fight out there. I wanted to give you a quick response on what I know right now.
We don't allow any kind of remote access software. I don't know exactly what kinds of detection process we have, but I do know that people email us in with problems playing, and once we take the remote access software off their computer, they are able to play. I've even got a little macro button that spits out programmed information to people with these programs.
It looks like this:
(Any program that allows remote access or control of your computer will prevent Ultimate Poker from running. If you have any of the following programs, or other programs with similar functionality, they must not be running when you try to run Ultimate Poker:
TeamView
Remote Access
Remote Desktop
GoToMyPC
LogMeIn
VNC
Without realizing exactly what the program does, many people have one of these or similar programs installed on their work laptops so their computers can access an office network while on the road or to receive assistance from IT remotely.
If this doesn't ring any bells and you're still having trouble, let us know so we can assist you further in troubleshooting exactly what is causing this problem.
This should resolve the issue; however, if you continue to encounter any problems, please do not hesitate to contact us further. )
I hope this answers some questions for you.
Please let me know if I can assist you further.
Jake C.
Player Care Ace
Ultimate Poker"
So, right, if it is running, not installed.
Michael Paler
Legend
Silver Level
I don't think anyone is ignorant; we are just getting our wires crossed, I think. I am talking about software (with or without a HUD) that gives info above and beyond what you normally see "sitting" at your online game table. Such as certain long range stats on your opponent.
You make me think you are simply talking about a HUD, but what info? If it goes beyond what you see into pot odds, hands odds, strength, etc; I am considering that is what they mean by an illegal software application. IOW, if it gives you info you would otherwise (like when playing live) have to figure out for yourself, but the computer simply calcs out and throws up on your HUD, concerning other players, not just your game.
hobonc
Visionary
Silver Level
Well if it came across as me casting aspersions towards HUD's then pardon me. That wasn't my intent. I really don't care if anyone uses them, nor do I fear playing against those who do. HUD's don't guarantee a particular outcome in any given situation any more so than 30 years of experience does. Using a HUD to calculate what a player is likely to do is great unless that player zigs when he was supposed to zag.
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
The big trackers, PTx and HEMx might pass close scurtiny.
The Carbon tracker does calculate probabilities on the fly, and thus would not pass that scrutiny.
It would depend on how the Nev Law is interpreted. As I track my games thru time, I also end up incidentally tracking my villains and their hands across time, and those stats are presented to me and sort of predict what I can expect from them (my villains).
It will be iffy IMHO about whether or not the biggies pass scrutiny.
And D'mo, I do know what trackers do.
PTx and HMx only do what I could do if I were a meticulous player. They record the history of my game and my tables. I could compile manually a huge file cabinet full of records of players and hands, and that would pass muster anywhere. But I, and millions of other players are too lazy to compile and keep those records.
A better solution that might even make Bovada happy, might be something like the ability to regularly, as in hourly even, change my screen name. This would hose the trackers from a history POV, and limit them to this active session alone. Villain stats would become essentially useless beyond the hands you track at the table you are at, or the tourney you are in.
The Carbon tracker does calculate probabilities on the fly, and thus would not pass that scrutiny.
It would depend on how the Nev Law is interpreted. As I track my games thru time, I also end up incidentally tracking my villains and their hands across time, and those stats are presented to me and sort of predict what I can expect from them (my villains).
It will be iffy IMHO about whether or not the biggies pass scrutiny.
And D'mo, I do know what trackers do.
PTx and HMx only do what I could do if I were a meticulous player. They record the history of my game and my tables. I could compile manually a huge file cabinet full of records of players and hands, and that would pass muster anywhere. But I, and millions of other players are too lazy to compile and keep those records.A better solution that might even make Bovada happy, might be something like the ability to regularly, as in hourly even, change my screen name. This would hose the trackers from a history POV, and limit them to this active session alone. Villain stats would become essentially useless beyond the hands you track at the table you are at, or the tourney you are in.
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dmorris68
Legend
Loyaler
And I'd venture a guess that I've probably been engineering systems and developing firmware and software a helluva lot longer than you. Oh, including RNGs btw (I throw that in there only because I've had to wade into a bunch of similar laughable arguments here about how RNGs work). But so what?
My point wasn't that you had to be a computer/software genius to understand trackers. It was a comment on why some people will often avoid and even disparage things they don't understand.
You missed the point entirely. Which is typical, and why I had stopped bothering anymore. But you've caught me in rare form tonight, so let's buckle up!
Huh? I never said it didn't give you an advantage. Of course it does. Unfair? It's not unfair when everyone has the option to use it. If only select people could use software, then no, it wouldn't be fair. And please stop using Carbon's Hold'em Indicator as an example. It's far less useful than real software and really doesn't belong in a serious tracker discussion. It's aimed precisely at recreational players to introduce them to the concept at no cost. And do I need to point out that it was actually licensed and promoted by a card room itself??? Do you think they'd allow -- much less promote -- something considered unfair?
Taking notes during a live game gives you can advantage. Memorizing traits of key players you're up against gives you an advantage. Studying books and videos gives you an advantage. Consulting with friends or fellow pros against known villains gives you an advantage over them. Hiring a coach gives you an advantage. Learning to read other players and hide your own tells gives you an advantage. So you're suggesting anything done to improve your edge over other players, deemed legal by the industry and available to anyone and everyone to use if they wish, should be banned? The tools are available to all, and if you choose not to use them, fine, but you're only putting yourself at a disadvantage. And that's your choice, but you then have no right to suggest others are using them unfairly.
HUDs and trackers don't do anything but provide you statistics. It's up to you understand and use that data. Buying a tracker and enabling a HUD will not make you a better player. Most beginners are clueless and usually overwhelmed when they first see a HUD or a tracker report/graph -- they have no idea what they're looking at or how to use the information. Take any winning player that normally uses a HUD, remove the HUD, and put them up against the average player and they will still wipe the floor with them.
The fact you're arguing this point is entirely proving the one I made about people with no clue offering an opinion that serves no other purpose than to showcase their ignorance. Honestly, it may sound harsh but some opinions really should be kept quiet. Whether I'm entitled to it or not, I don't go around giving my uneducated opinion on how I think brain surgery should be performed.
In contrast, hobonc expressed a similar opinion to yours but outright stated he hadn't used HUDs and couldn't discuss them from a standpoint of experience. He didn't come across with an obnoxious, condescending tone. Which brings me to...
Okay, I'll bite.
In mid-2011, just as bodog was preparing to rebrand as Bovada in the US, they were heavily pursing something they called their "Recreational Player Model." One of their first stands in doing this was to aggressively block datamining sites. Which is hard to argue with -- no self-respecting, serious poker player would have a problem with trying to kill datamining, me included. It's clearly against the TOS of every poker site (unlike trackers/HUDs), because it gives you the unfair advantage of gaining data on players that you never played against. The first aggressive implementation of this defense was anonymous tables, which coincided with the release of the new Bovada branded software. The problem was, dataminers weren't their only target. They also lumped in personal trackers in the same fold. They first tried to say they didn't have a problem with players tracking their own stats, but were then forced to admit when questioned that their tactics would also block players from keeping stats on other players from their own games. My stats are mostly meaningless when they can't be used relative to the players I'm playing with.
Here's an exchange between myself and Jonas Odman, Vice President of Bodog Network (the links are live if you don't trust me):
Okay, back to this Recreational Player Model. The RPM concept involves limiting or driving away serious winning players so the "net depositing players" (their term, which is a euphemism for losing player or fish) could play with each other. The unspoken upshot of this is that the vast majority of their revenue comes from their casino/sportsbook games, and they know that those degens comprise a large percentage of their poker players. These folks will often sit down and blow off their pit/sports winnings at the poker table, treating poker like any other pit game. Then redeposit, rinse, repeat. They wanted to protect that revenue stream and make sure losing players weren't being scared off by winning players who ran over them consistently due to edge (be that from skills, tools, or whatever). They wanted to keep the money on the site, in the fish community, not having it withdrawn by winning players. That way when degen#2 takes money off degen#1, he's likely to go back to the pit/sportsbook and lose it to the house. Then both degens redeposit. It's simple really: these losing players redeposit so they can keep playing. But winning players withdraw, taking that money off the tables.
Want another quote to back that up? Jonas Odman flatly states that winning players are bad for the poker economy because they take money out of the poker ecosystem:
Pretty clear what their opinion of winning players are. And hey, guess what? Most winning/withdrawing players also use trackers/HUDs! Why? Because most winning/withdrawing players multi-table (another major difference from live play) which justifies different types of tools to manage it, i.e. trackers/HUDs. With rare exception, almost all of your multi-table grinders are using trackers and HUDs.
BTW, did you pick up on the hint of hypocrisy in Jonas' quote above? "Money can only leave a poker eco system in two ways: through rake and withdrawals." So it's okay if it leaves through rake, because that's their revenue stream. But we can't be having winning players earning their revenue through our site! LOL. And here's another LOL: those fish they're talking about are largely casino/sportsbook gamblers who then lose their poker "winnings" in the pit/sports games. Those funds also go to the house and leave the poker economy. Funny how he didn't point that one out, eh?
More from Jonas:
I could dig up more quotes we've discussed here over the years from Jonas and Calvin Ayre himself, that blatantly and unabashadly state their business model is build around keeping the losing fish happy, even if it means alienating and driving off winning players. Calvin himself has stated on multiple occasions that not only was poker tracking tools bad for business, but that it was so obviously bad that ALL poker sites would be soon following in Bodog's footsteps and outlawing them, else risk destroying themselves. What do you know, 2 years later, and sites are now promoting their own trackers, LOL.
dmorris68
Legend
Loyaler
And I counter that they DON'T give you anything you can't see. Refer to DJ's point below. They don't show you unexposed hole cards. They don't read your opponents minds. They don't peek inside the shuffled deck. They simply take notes the same way you might.
And D'mo, I do know what trackers do.
That's exactly my point, dj! Trackers don't do anything you can't do yourself. They essentially automate note taking or observation of your opponents, which has always been legal. They're not telling you what plays to make, they're presenting historical data to you that you must then base your own decisions upon.
Michael Paler
Legend
Silver Level
Well, I don't know about you, lol, but I am bowing out of this one. Seems some folks get a little touchy about this, don't they?
While I do not fear it either, many uninformed players do, right or wrong. And they stay away from OLP because if it. Fans of the software are in denial about this. Sucks, but there it is. I would just like to welcome all those potential fish into a fair and honest game where I can use whatever skill I have all on my own to break them like a twig. That's all.
So It was not my intent to piss people off either. I just thought it was common knowledge that this is often considered an unfair advantage against weaker players that should not be needed and some use instead of true poker skill. State of Nevada agrees with me. wsop, WPT, HPT, EPT; all those could certainly offer it or allow it to be used in live games (It's 2013, after all), yet they also seem to think it is an unfair advantage. But I say it and point out the elephant in the room and am illiterate, ignorant of software, yada, yada. Well, ok.
I'll tell you one thing I am good at, however; I can smell BS a mile away.
dmorris68
Legend
Loyaler
Not touchy. Just frustrated by people who can't form logical and well-reasoned arguments, then spread FUD among new members who never heard of this stuff before and now have a totally wrong opinion about them. I gave you what you challenged me to give you, but instead of acknowledging that maybe, just maybe, you're not as smart about everything as you make yourself out to be, you just take your ball and go home. Hell man, I came out of tl;dr post retirement to address this! You could at least give me the benefit of a reasoned response to what you asked for.
/facepalm
No. They. Don't. Trackers/HUDs are not what those regulations refer to, but obviously you can't accept that.
LOL. Apparently not under your own nose, but whatever makes you feel better.I'll tell you one thing I am good at, however; I can smell BS a mile away.
Michael Paler
Legend
Silver Level
That is a lot of text for such a simple question, I thank you. You seem to not be much of a fan of them, so I do wonder how objective you are being? Maybe you are being just a little harsh? I mean, you stated that without the software we are discussing here, a player could still mop up. So, it only seems logical they would want to play at a site like Bovada with a large RPM, wouldn't they? In that respect the model as stated to be, does not make much sense.
Michael Paler
Legend
Silver Level
Relax, slick. I am still here. Just took a while to work through all your verbiage and eat din-din at the same time. I responded to you.:tee:
Michael Paler
Legend
Silver Level
Hey, look, throw a 10k word response back at me, you gotta give me a chance to post a response. I am not a typist, for god's sake.
I never call BS and walk away. I might vanish for a while to eat and type, tho, lol.
Michael Paler
Legend
Silver Level
No, I think I know which direction it is coming from...
hackmeplz
Sleep Faster
Silver Level
I'm completely for banning huds simply because I'm not as good at using them as other people are, but this post is just so laughably off and it's pretty clear you don't actually play real poker. I'll say this, I don't believe there is a single poker pro today who would be a losing player without a hud, and 100% of online poker pros do completely fine 1-tabling live poker and gaining more information from observation than they ever get from a hud. A hud simply helps them play more tables and typically the hud just classifies players (aka it's easy to quickly look and see if it's a fish or nit or lag etc.) Some use it a bit more in depth, but the majority of online pros I know don't really use it much beyond looking at vpip/pfr/3-bet. Now currently I play in games where the player pool is small enough I don't really need a hud to classify players and when my computer was acting up I played a bit without a hud and honestly had no issue. So like I said I'm all for banning huds, you just clearly have no idea what you're talking about wrt huds in this post.
dmorris68
Legend
Loyaler
Okay, Michael, it's obvious from this and other posts that we're at an impasse. Instead of logically addressing and rebutting the salient points I laid out, you cling to this whole "level playing field" argument and "everyone can give an opinion" thing. Weak, but okay. The playing field is as level as anyone wants to make it, and expressing your opinion opens a door to someone showing you how wrong you are. You seem to confuse having an opinion with being immune to challenge.
And listen to this guy. He knows of what he speaks.
I'm guessing you missed the part in the OP where it said "licensing gaming establishment" while not mentioning anything about online. I simply joined the chorus of those responding to that here saying it almost certainly wasn't written for online poker based on the wording. It reads very obviously like standard casino-targeted regulation. Show me where it refers to online poker, and congratulations, you win! Or keep arguing against common sense, either way I guess.
And listen to this guy. He knows of what he speaks.
hackmeplz
Sleep Faster
Silver Level
if we're going for a level playing field we should probably ban fast internet connections right? It's unfair for some to have dial-up connections and others to have an advantage with an unlevel playing field being able to act faster and get longer to think their decisions over.