HUDS Break Nevada State Law

R

rhombus

Legend
May get poker back but might have to play without a HUD
NRS 465.075 Use of device for calculating probabilities.
It is unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use, any device to assist:
  1. In projecting the outcome of the game;
  2. In keeping track of the cards played;
  3. In analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game or;
  4. In analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game, except as permitted by the commission.
 
Saieno

Saieno

Rising Star
i wish HUDs were banned on all sites

This. All these programs and datacenters are also why I perfer to play on Bovada. Yeah its anonymous players, you have to learn your opponent as you play, just like in real life. Anywho, just a short rant.
 
Michael Paler

Michael Paler

Legend
i wish HUDs were banned on all sites

LMAO!

Well, the day of reckoning for the online poker "pros" who rely on this crap to play a winning game are getting their comeuppance, if only in this instance.

Don't get me wrong; many use it simply as an aid for their poker game. But far more numbers of slicksters rely on it, to make up for a lack of skill, and are going to just hate this, lol. GOOD!

It just breaks my heart, lmao. Now they will have to actually learn how to play poker! Har, Har. Strike up the band: "Ain't that a shame....your skill level dropped like rain...." About time!

This also keeps the online game more in line with a live game. After all, you cannot play a WSOP or other live event with a computer telling you what your pot odds are, etc. while at the table, now can you?

Thanks, Nevada, you just made my day! This is going to be good for poker overall as well and I hope like hell it catches on like wildfire to dry brush.

:tee:
 
Michael Paler

Michael Paler

Legend
This. All these programs and datacenters are also why I perfer to play on Bovada. Yeah its anonymous players, you have to learn your opponent as you play, just like in real life. Anywho, just a short rant.

Short, sweet, accurate and agreed to by me 100%. That is why I like Bovada. But the software babies just cannot stand it.:musicus:
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
May get poker back but might have to play without a HUD
NRS 465.075 Use of device for calculating probabilities.
It is unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use, any device to assist:
  1. In projecting the outcome of the game;
  2. In keeping track of the cards played;
  3. In analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game or;
  4. In analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game, except as permitted by the commission.
Don't think this law would apply to a HUD. There is NOTHING that a HUD does that would allow you to calculate the probabilities of the hand you have winning. Poker isn't BJ so the last hand has no bearing on the current one.

Software "babies" rejoice!!!
 
Michael Paler

Michael Paler

Legend
Well, I am sure they are not all the same. Lets see what carbon's free one is, for one example; I think it might be a safe assumption that one you pay for is going to have more features than a free one, maybe. Maybe not.

Carbon Poker Odds Calculator

The CarbonPoker Odds Calculator is industry leading poker software that will improve your game by utilizing hand probabilities, win odds, pot odds and opposition patterns to give you the best possible chance to win. This tool also has a hand replayer built-in to help you analyze your game and become a better poker player.

So, I think depending on your point of view, it could be argued that it does calculate your hands probabilities of winning (win odds). I also think it could be argued that this what keeps some players away from OLP and enables others make the case that OLP is "rigged". They certainly point to this kind of software as evidence of that, right or wrong. Again, this is a free one that is so-called industry leading, so other programs that you pay for might have less info available to the average "player" that uses it.

This is the non-HU view, one clearly showing showing the odds for your current holding, based off of the board cards, the other showing the stats portion. I think it fair to say this could help make a novice a far better player that he or she has a right to be. Honestly, I really think it is the digital version of steroids. Just my opinion.
 

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dmorris68

dmorris68

League Staff Geek
Lots of people with no clue how HUDs/Trackers work ITT. Isn't the first time, unfortunately, but I hate it when ignorance is disguised as indignance.

Carbon's tool is a licensed copy of Hold'em Indicator. It's an odds calculator with a minimal (sucky) HUD, it's not a true tracking package like Poker Tracker or Hold'em Manager.
 
BatteredMugshot

BatteredMugshot

Enthusiast
ummm..

Short, sweet, accurate and agreed to by me 100%. That is why I like Bovada. But the software babies just cannot stand it.:musicus:

well i happen to have HM2 paid for and downloaded. I also paid for the leakbuster app within. I, however, do NOT currently use it. 1. I dont find it necessary in freerolls and 2. Im spending more of my time on Bovada 3. the hud #s (in my honest opinion) are only TRUELY helpful once you've logged about 2500 hands on any given person. maybe even double that amount!

I honestly wouldnt mind a refund..doubt ill use it much, if at all, anymore. bye bye HEM. *shrugs* . I currently am fond of Bovada as well :):tee:
 

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Michael Paler

Michael Paler

Legend
Lots of people with no clue how HUDs/Trackers work ITT. Isn't the first time, unfortunately, but I hate it when ignorance is disguised as indignance.

Carbon's tool is a licensed copy of Hold'em Indicator. It's an odds calculator with a minimal (sucky) HUD, it's not a true tracking package like Poker Tracker or Hold'em Manager.

I think you misunderstood me; if it is software designed to keep track of your own performance/results only and help you improve your own game, then that is legal software, right? This is no different from keeping track of your performance manually, in this case, right? No one should have a problem with that.

No, I thought Nevada was talking about software that includes tracking of other players each time the user plays them and gives indications of how they might play overall from those stats as well as mathematical info on the current hand, giving perhaps an unfair advantage. Kind of like the one I showed. The description Carbon gave sure makes it sound like a tool to defeat your opponents with.

I get confused sometimes, as many who insist how benign some of the software is and how it cannot possibly be used unfairly against other players then get very upset at the thought of not being able to use it. I mean, if it is so useless, what is the problem if you cannot use it? Some just hate Bovada for that reason. It is almost as if they cannot play without it. Again, makes me wonder why.

Then again, I do hate getting rid of a favorite old pair of shoes, lol.
 
DaReKa

DaReKa

Rock Star
well i happen to have HM2 paid for and downloaded. I also paid for the leakbuster app within. I, however, do NOT currently use it. 1. I dont find it necessary in freerolls and 2. Im spending more of my time on Bovada 3. the hud #s (in my honest opinion) are only TRUELY helpful once you've logged about 2500 hands on any given person. maybe even double that amount!

I honestly wouldnt mind a refund..doubt ill use it much, if at all, anymore. bye bye HEM. *shrugs* . I currently am fond of Bovada as well :):tee:
You can use HEM2 with Bovada, just not the HUD. The HUD is only one of many uses of tracking software. I think you have to manually import hands from Bovada, but I'm not sure as I just started playing there today.

Now they will have to actually learn how to play poker! Har, Har. Strike up the band: "Ain't that a shame....your skill level dropped like rain...."

People playing without a HUD or tracking software will not be able to improve as quickly as those who do. It's a useful tool that encourages thinking about the mathematical side of the game as you play, allowing you to apply what you've learned even when you don't have exact numbers in front of you. Using it as a "crutch" seems like more of a myth to me. It's just hard not to learn anything when you get the numbers, analyze them, and then make decisions based on what you're seeing session after session.

**I suppose people playing 20 tables at a time are using them as a crutch, but my point is that you do learn things from evaluating the information you can get from a HUD**
 
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JusSumguy

JusSumguy

Chipmonger
Awards
2
HUD's don't predict a thing. They only tell you what has happened. Put together in a way which allows you to make good decisions based on what has happened.

-
 
hobonc

hobonc

Visionary
May get poker back but might have to play without a HUD
NRS 465.075 Use of device for calculating probabilities.
It is unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use, any device to assist:
  1. In projecting the outcome of the game;
  2. In keeping track of the cards played;
  3. In analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game or;
  4. In analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game, except as permitted by the commission.

Don't think this law would apply to a HUD. There is NOTHING that a HUD does that would allow you to calculate the probabilities of the hand you have winning. Poker isn't BJ so the last hand has no bearing on the current one.

Software "babies" rejoice!!!

According to this section a hud could qualify.
Not arguing for or against them. I would find enforcement a problem for the regulatory body as far as online play is concerned.
 
hobonc

hobonc

Visionary
People playing without a HUD or tracking software will not be able to improve as quickly as those who do.

Maybe some. Maybe even most. I'd argue that a reasonably intelligent person could educate himself with books and experience and learn it better because they haven't relied on just looking up and retrieving the numbers. Me personally, I don't need one. Perhaps in cases where there are really long pauses in between sessions with a particular villain one may refresh my memory quicker; or it may help me formulate my opinion of you x number of hands quicker. But if I play enough hands with anyone the info gleaned from a HUD I am aware of close enough to determine my action in any given situation.

That action isn't always correct but using a HUD doesn't necessarily make in any more so IMO.
 
Michael Paler

Michael Paler

Legend
You can use HEM2 with Bovada, just not the HUD. The HUD is only one of many uses of tracking software. I think you have to manually import hands from Bovada, but I'm not sure as I just started playing there today.



People playing without a HUD or tracking software will not be able to improve as quickly as those who do. It's a useful tool that encourages thinking about the mathematical side of the game as you play, allowing you to apply what you've learned even when you don't have exact numbers in front of you. Using it as a "crutch" seems like more of a myth to me. It's just hard not to learn anything when you get the numbers, analyze them, and then make decisions based on what you're seeing session after session.

Your right and that is essentially the same things players learn how to do, in their heads, live, right? Of course, like anything else, if you abuse it and never bother to learn the ways that math you see on your HUD is arrived at, it leads to poor live play and some online (Bovada) play, where you also have to use your head as the only computer. But to understand the math it comes in real handy, I am sure.

Using it as a "crutch" could be a bit of a myth, but those that would be using it as such are only the ones who are lost without it. For a good player, he can live without it and still be a good player. It's kind of hard to define without a relevant example; some people are really good using what they see in front of them and able to take full advantage without understanding the overall nuances away from that example. Sort-of like they play the game of poker on the computer as if it is a computer game. Does that make sense?

I think of it like someone who knows the numbers they see are a good thing or bad and base decisions solely off of that, but they cannot really tell you why they are good or bad. So you could still kill many fish like that, yet only end up losing your shirt to a good player. So I guess the question is, can they make enough off of the weak and uninitiated to cover the losses to the good players?
 
dmorris68

dmorris68

League Staff Geek
Again, the last several posts are being made by people who obviously don't use or understand what HUDs and trackers do. You're not considering multi-tabling aspects, self-study, income/results tracking, tax reporting, and the myriad of other things people use trackers & HUDs for. The ignorance is deafening, but honestly I'm tired of trying to educate people -- every so often we get a rash of "OMG you mean there's software that helps you play pokerz??? That's not right!!!!1!!!one!!!" and for years I and many others have been providing logical, cogent arguments to explain the reality. Some get it, some never do. I give up, and just have to chuckle.

Trackers/HUDs are legal at virtually all online poker sites. Bovada is the only site that takes drastic measures to stop them, and their reason is that winning players use them, and they don't welcome winning players (I'm not making that up, their VP actually said so). Even Cake, who used to ban them outright, eventually relented and not only allowed them, but modified their software to support them.

I get that not everyone is computer literate, or likes software, or for whatever misguided reason thinks online poker and live poker are the same thing (they aren't by a long shot) and should be played exactly the same way, but people really shouldn't speak with such indignance about things they obviously don't understand.
 
Blobweird123

Blobweird123

CC's very own Dead Head
I think you misunderstood me; if it is software designed to keep track of your own performance/results only and help you improve your own game, then that is legal software, right? This is no different from keeping track of your performance manually, in this case, right? No one should have a problem with that.

No, I thought Nevada was talking about software that includes tracking of other players each time the user plays them and gives indications of how they might play overall from those stats as well as mathematical info on the current hand, giving perhaps an unfair advantage. Kind of like the one I showed. The description Carbon gave sure makes it sound like a tool to defeat your opponents with.

I get confused sometimes, as many who insist how benign some of the software is and how it cannot possibly be used unfairly against other players then get very upset at the thought of not being able to use it. I mean, if it is so useless, what is the problem if you cannot use it? Some just hate Bovada for that reason. It is almost as if they cannot play without it. Again, makes me wonder why.

Then again, I do hate getting rid of a favorite old pair of shoes, lol.

And how is it any different when it tracks other peoples stats? Those can't be taken down manually as well? Sure could! People hate Bovada because you can't have any history with villains, even written notes. How is that like real life poker where I see the same guys every time at the casino and have an idea of what ranges they show up with and where?


And nice one with the !!!!!1!!!!one!!! Dmo lol I was laughin
 
Michael Paler

Michael Paler

Legend
According to this section a hud could qualify.
Not arguing for or against them. I would find enforcement a problem for the regulatory body as far as online play is concerned.

You would think that, but I am amazed at some of the tricks of the trade, so to speak! For example, what Ultimate does to prevent people from using remote desktop programs (to possibly play as several different people on one computer, avoiding the IP address problem); the poker client itself looks for those particular programs, installed or running, and you won't be able to play their game if they are! I should think they could do a similar thing with tracking programs.

They would not give me details on it, but said that is one thing they have people check for when they have issues running the software. And it really sucks for some folks, as they honestly need a remote desktop program at home, lol.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
According to this section a hud could qualify.
Not arguing for or against them. I would find enforcement a problem for the regulatory body as far as online play is concerned.
I actually doubt that section would prohibit it because as I said poker is a game were all the cards are reshuffled and dealt clean every hand so their is no advantage to be gained from knowing the cards previously dealt. The spirit of the law quoted is to prevent electronic tracking of cards played to enable an advantage in games where the cards are not shuffled after every hand (like blackjack).
 
TheKid84

TheKid84

Legend
tax reporting

I wouldn't be surprised to see the new US approved sites to incorporate some sort of HUD the site owns (similar to what Carbon does) but for the sole purpose for tax reporting. Something that would pretty much spew a W-2 your way at the end of the year for tax season.
 
dmorris68

dmorris68

League Staff Geek
They would not give me details on it, but said that is one thing they have people check for when they have issues running the software. And it really sucks for some folks, as they honestly need a remote desktop program at home, lol.
This isn't how RDP detection works. They don't check if it's installed (which would be LOL anyway, as it's included with most versions of Windows). They check if it's running at the time the poker client is running.

Software detection has been possible for years, technically it's a trivial thing to do. What the poker sites found out, however, is that privacy laws around the world -- especially in Europe -- got them in legal hot water and virtually all the sites stopped any scanning or monitoring of player systems years ago.
 
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