GGPoker accused of banning players for winning - Fedor Holz defends site

[ronn6583]

A very muddy story where both sides don't tell the truth.
One registers after he was allowed in 2016 to take back 5,000 won dollars by setting the condition to never play with them again.
And others, knowing that he returned, allow him to deposit 50,000 while losing, they did nothing, but as soon as he managed to hit the jackpot, his were immediately banned.
A very productive advertisement for a positive image of the poker room.
I wonder why this does not happen on other rooms?
A rule clause that allows GGPoker security to ban winning players.
2.1 Predatory Behavior is defined as User activities focused primarily on engaging in unethical advantegs and tactics to exploit other players in order to gain unfair profit. These include, but are not limited to; bum hunting, collusion, use of artificial intelligence, ratholing, griming, hit and running, buttoning and other unethical actions (mostly deemed unethical by general consensus of the poker community). GGPoker’s promise to its Users is to provide a safe, fun, and enjoyable poker environment. Predatory Behavior is in direct conflict with our promise, and as such, The Security Team adopts a strict zero-tolerance policy to it.

 

[balo]

GG poker claims he used a different email address at Best Poker then Natural/GG. That's why the security team did not notice this until 18 months later, when he wanted to cash out . Believe it if you want.

They had his real name and verification documents on both skins, so this should never go this far.

But I don't think there's any danger for us small stake players as long as we stick to the rules. I am not afraid to have money on their site.

 

[mkdrummey]

At the end of the day based on what I read he was told not to play on the GG network again. The message that was posted clearly stated GG network at the bottom. He then proceeds to sign up to GG poker.

Similar to players who sign up for multiple accounts or use VPN to circumvent local restrictions on playing, deserves all he got in my opinion.

 

[hartmann2508]

I always try to play GGpoker, but it has a lot of errors and slowness for me, I tried to solve it several times until I gave up, I don't know what happens.

 

[Nafor]

I decided to forget the whole network when I was doing my 'homework' about Natural8. That was also the time when I learned the term 'bum hunting'. GGPoker is no better and one should be aware if one only plays freerolls.

Part of GG's T&C:

If we reasonably suspect that the member is abusing the spirit of the free games sites – for example, by playing repeatedly only with free games, or by purchasing all the tickets for a free game, we may choose to close the account, and any related accounts across our Services, and withhold any funds from such accounts.

 

[Risto234]

Banning people who win too much ?!?

Nah most (if not all) gambling sites do that oneway or another cause when they see someone taking too much money from them then surely they dont let this person to pump money away for long :bebored:

 

[Poker Orifice]

Banning people who win too much ?!?

Nah most (if not all) gambling sites do that oneway or another cause when they see someone taking too much money from them then surely they dont let this person to pump money away for long :bebored:

You'd just have to guess on this one.... am I right?

 

[Risto234]

You'd just have to guess on this one.... am I right?

Maybe? Dont care though cause are unable to play there so cant practice it -.-

 

[JobyPoker]

of course fedor is gonna defend it, he's paid millions to do so

 

[Richard Grant]

The more recreational and fun players in the better. Regs with solvers are hardly good for the game and scare off a lot of people who think its "rigged". High quality players with the best software are too good. Stick them all om one table

 

[antonis32123]

I do not like being targeted by sharks , lose to them . I do not like people using programms so as to identify the weak players ,their weaknesses and exploit them . I do not like what I see on pokerstars micros cash games (at least) , people joining the session when a fish enters , then leave and break the table when he leaves or if they see a shark just joined the table or if they start losing , even only few blinds , lol . Joining and leaving so soon , sometimes they don't want to sacrifice not even one more blind to see if their luck is going to change .

But on the other hand this is poker , nowadays and/or always . Spotting the weak playeer , then ripping him off his assets , then go to the next available fish . HUDs and other programms serve this purpose . Players wouldn't play just for luck , play the best hands on the best positions on the best possible way , then wait to see if they are lucky and avoid a cooler or bad beat . They want more , far more , they want everything . They will use all possible available (=legal , not that some players , even pros , won't also try using prohibited tools sometimes.....) ways to spot weaknesses and exploit them on the maximum grade , for maximum wins , for best bluffs .

Bum hunting , a new term I 've just learned , lol . For me it's the same thing , banning sb for being a winner player . Either he uses HUDs or whatever else doesn't matter , as long as it's not a bot or solver . But how can you see if they use advanced chart or solver on another pc or laptop next to them , based on their results you guess they must make use of them for sure ??? Also , because they hunt specific fish , whales or loose losers ?? This bum -so called- hunting , they do this everywhere , on the best greatest poker rooms always . Even when I read some accusations thread by one pro or some pros against an individual pro , they always say the same thing :: We were playing on a table because a specific fish just joined , or more fish , many times waiting for this fish to appear at the cash games tables so as for the pros to join as well . Their only problem is if there is collusuon and they share hands or if they see possible fake accounts joining at the same time in specific positions (crating fake tables , trap not only for the fish but for pros/anyone else as well ) or the use of bots , etc:hmmmm2:

Bum hunting=witch hunting , if you don't clarify more specifically what is a bad pro , the ways you spot them , the ways they have violenced your TOS . Specific details on every case must be given , revealed and publiced , the pros desire it , , it's not a bot or programm , it' s a theoritical cheat accuse , saying it's not illegal but it's in our discretion to dudge what is desirable or not for our ecosystem , that sounds very subjective , even prejudiced maybe for certain pros ... Set specific rules , change the system , not taking decisions for every individual seperately , based on what interests or comforts you mostly ...For your ''ecosystem'' 's shake ....



.

 

[fundiver199]

Bum hunting can easily be combated by poker sites by making seating in cash games random, which a lot of poker sites have already either done or introduced as an option. Sure the bum hunter can still leave the tables, he dont like, but then poker sites could introduce a limitation on, how many new seatings are allowed per hour.

And same with things like "abuse" of the sit-out function, which many sites also mention in their TOS. How difficult would it be to make the availability of "sit-out" depend on, how long a player has been at the table? If I have already played for 1,5 hours, then its totally reasonable, that I might need a 10 min toilet break. But if someone has just sat down, then just bounce them from the table right away, if they click "sit-out". And also remove broke players, who dont reload within x seconds, just like its already done in tournaments.

As for software, which gives players real time advice but dont directly play for them, this is more or less a lost battle. Most poker sites dont allow the use of for instance Nash equilibrium programs like ICMizer during play. But if you end up at the final table of a high or mid stakes tournament, you can rest assured, that most of your opponents have ICMizer or a similar program running at a different computer, so that the poker site can not track it.

Its also up for debate, how much this even matter, since players, who have spend 3.000 hours working with the program away from the tables, probably dont make many ICM mistakes anyway. So as for this part I think, poker sites might as well just throw in the towel and allow players to use, whatever programs they want, as long as the program does not directly do the playing AKA "bot".

The current rules of most poker sites simply can not be enforced, just as it can not be enforced, that you are not allowed to have your coach with you on the phone or in a chat, when you reached that big final table. This is an area, where we just need to accept, that online poker is not the same as live poker, and maybe we should simply not play for millions online.

 

[jsnake716]

Recently, there have been accusations stating GGPoker has been banning people due to winning too much? GGPoker has defended themselves and say that is not true! GGPoker ambassador Fedor Holz also, came to the defense of the site.

There is an interesting series of events leading up to the accusations which can be found in the article.

GGPoker Denies Banning Players for Being Big Winners

GGPoker has released a statement or clarification on Terms of Service which sounds awful to me. I am from the U.S. so I don't have a dog in this fight. What bothers me is the amount of people who say "well, some poker players are doing "bad" things, so I think it is good that GGP is "doing" something." If you read what they say, they leave things very vague, they have no process, a person goes through, if GGP decides to label you "bad" they can take your funds and bann you. Do people really believe a private company who is interested in profits is going to be the best people to arbitrate disagreements involving player funds. Player Funds used to be untouchable, in fact, Poker in the U.S. is "illegal" because companies started manipulating those funds.

I believe online poker needs to work on ways to insure the integrity of the site and people playing on that site. I would like to see the sites get together and develop some kind of security team that would handle complaints and accusations. I admit this idea has many issues and I did not thinkk it through BUT it has to be better than a site deciding on it's own if a player is promoting their site or if they are "bad" for poker and lose the ability to play.

 

[jsnake716]

Just spitballing here...

Maybe their security system is triggered by larger wins? or requests for withdrawals?

Imagine an ethical poker site: Records a deposit of $ 50,000 USD- sorry sir we must refuse this deposit because we have your information on file that you were banned fom 1 of our skins 4 years ago.

Now think GGP - records a deposit of $ 50,000 USD - allows the deposit, verifies the account but "internally" flags this account. Keep daily check on this account. As long as this player was losing or running about even nothing. Shortly after, within hours of a huge session, as I understand it. account is sent to security, assets frozen, player banned and the following fiasco of trying to sway public opinion to their side ????

:damnmate:

 

[LitPavel]

I'm listening to the YouTube video fundiver put up and in the midst of the discussion amongst the panel. (Terrence Chan and DNegs are part of it) Interesting points of view.

I tend to believe Tobias could have signed up innocently but now that he has been found out, what should GGPoker do? There is no way of really knowing how innocent the action was.

So, this brings me to my next question - has there been others who have claimed their accounts have been closed due to winning too much?

I believe that they are acting dishonestly, that is, if there were violations, the account should be banned immediately. But no, as long as the player makes a profit to the room, they do not touch it, as soon as the player wins a large sum, they begin to dig into the "dirty Laundry" and look for an excuse not to pay. Here's another example, I'm sorry not to mention that this spring the site poker stars banned a player from Kazakhstan and took 250 thousand dollars for the fact that he had several accounts. I'm not saying they're wrong but they didn't touch him until he had that much money. So I mostly agree with the fact that poker rooms ban players for big winnings.

 

[fundiver199]

Here's another example, I'm sorry not to mention that this spring the site poker stars banned a player from Kazakhstan and took 250 thousand dollars for the fact that he had several accounts. I'm not saying they're wrong but they didn't touch him until he had that much money.

This is kind of like being a drug dealer and blaming the police for not catching you, until you had earned a lot of money, which they then confiscated. At the end of the day it is up to players to follow the TOS of a poker site, and just because it takes time for security to catch offenders does not mean, they are now suddenly victims.

Also having several accounts is certainly not something, which can happen by "accident", so this is a much clearer case than the one from GG Poker, where maybe he was actually not aware, that he signed up to the same network. But he also got his deposit back, so he only lost his time and profit, which I think is fair enough even for not paying attention and taking it serious, that he was banned.

So I mostly agree with the fact that poker rooms ban players for big winnings.

Is it really so strange, that a request for withdrawal of for instance 250.000$ trigger an investigation? After all there are 100.000s of accounts on online poker sites, and security dont have time to look deeply into each and every one of them. Its not about "finding excuses to not pay out". Its about the simple fact, its more important to check up on these high-rollers than other players.

Another example is Gordon Wayo, who had a tournament score of around 600k confiscated, because he was using VPN to pretend, he was not playing from within the US. If he had won 160$ in a 1$ MTT, do you really think, they would have put the same effort into exposing him and taking him to court? If you are going to play for serious money, then dont f... with the poker site. Pretty much as simple as that.

 

[LitPavel]

This is kind of like being a drug dealer and blaming the police for not catching you, until you had earned a lot of money, which they then confiscated. At the end of the day it is up to players to follow the TOS of a poker site, and just because it takes time for security to catch offenders does not mean, they are now suddenly victims.

Also having several accounts is certainly not something, which can happen by "accident", so this is a much clearer case than the one from GG Poker, where maybe he was actually not aware, that he signed up to the same network. But he also got his deposit back, so he only lost his time and profit, which I think is fair enough even for not paying attention and taking it serious, that he was banned.



Is it really so strange, that a request for withdrawal of for instance 250.000$ trigger an investigation? After all there are 100.000s of accounts on online poker sites, and security dont have time to look deeply into each and every one of them. Its not about "finding excuses to not pay out". Its about the simple fact, its more important to check up on these high-rollers than other players.

Another example is Gordon Wayo, who had a tournament score of around 600k confiscated, because he was using VPN to pretend, he was not playing from within the US. If he had won 160$ in a 1$ MTT, do you really think, they would have put the same effort into exposing him and taking him to court? If you are going to play for serious money, then dont f... with the poker site. Pretty much as simple as that.

I'm not saying they treated the offenders unfairly. I just stressed the fact that they only start investigating those who have won a lot. They are not interested in microlimits, although the vast majority of scammers are there.

 

[1nsomn1a]

These stories are probably in every pokerroom. Unfortunately, in modern times, it is easier for people to look for ways to cheat and cheat than to try to improve their game and try to win honestly and hard. I hope that the time will come for fair and honest poker, both on the part of players and owners of poker rooms.

 

[Shells]

I'm not saying they treated the offenders unfairly. I just stressed the fact that they only start investigating those who have won a lot. They are not interested in microlimits, although the vast majority of scammers are there.

My guess is the poker site has something in place when large sums of money are being won or banked? or when there is a withdrawal request? That must be what alerts them, right?!

Of course, there is not as much to lose when micro-limits are involved until they are ready to withdraw larger sums of money (which I'm sure there is somewhat of an investigation done). I don't know how deposits and withdrawals work within the security/finance departments but most people don't mind if you throw money at them, however trying to get it back might be like jumping through hoops.


So, which brings me to ask (everyone), if this was your poker site, what would you do?

 

[fundiver199]

I'm not saying they treated the offenders unfairly. I just stressed the fact that they only start investigating those who have won a lot. They are not interested in microlimits, although the vast majority of scammers are there.

Then we pretty much agree, but I just dont see, how it can be any different. Of course they can not spend 1.000$ in manpower to investigate someone, who is requesting to withdraw 300$ after generating a similar amount of rake

 

[LitPavel]

Of course, there is not as much to lose when micro-limits are involved until they are ready to withdraw larger sums of money (which I'm sure there is somewhat of an investigation done).


So, which brings me to ask (everyone), if this was your poker site, what would you do?

For someone, it may be an insignificant amount, for example, I have a salary of $ 150 per month and I can't spend more than $ 20 on a Deposit. And so it is very unpleasant if I lose them dishonestly. Now I try to play only tournaments. If we talk specifically about Ggpoker I did not have a very pleasant acquaintance with him) I filled up my account there for 20 dollars, played only tournaments and spin and gold, but as soon as I registered in two tournaments at the same time, the tables froze, even if I played one table, it still froze in 10 minutes, 20 minutes later, and either when I put 80% of my chips in the Bank or there were already big blinds, as a result, I lost my buy-in. After I wrote about it to support, they told me that the problem is on my side, but after fulfilling all their recommendations, the problem remained. As a result, they presented themselves as right and refused any compensation.Of course, when recently they had problems with the server, in particular with the wsop tournament for $ 50, they returned the buy-in to the players and registered them for free, but as for individual cases, they are always right). I believe that they want to conquer the world market too quickly while their software is very raw and not reliable and yet they still decided to hold a WSOP)) I have decided to refrain from playing there for the time being.

 

[LitPavel]

But since they are coming out of the gray areas and trying to take pride of place in online poker I believe that this whole situation with Tobias Duthweiler is just an excuse to attract attention. And it is interesting by the way in the terms of service to which they refer it is written that these two sites are linked?