The continuing story on Phil Ivey vs. Borgata

Shells

Shells

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Dec 18, 2010
Total posts
15,804
Awards
14
Phil Ivey has fought the MGM-owned casino since 2016 over a what the casino claims, and the courts agree, Ivey cheated the house during a series of baccarat sessions. But the poker pro argues he was only playing the game by the agreed-upon rules of the game and so far appears to stick to what he believes. We know this argument has been settled in court, but do you think the courts got it right?

Pay Up or Else: Borgata Wants 2019 WSOP Winnings from Phil Ivey
 
ASMautoneJr

ASMautoneJr

Visionary
Joined
Dec 1, 2017
Total posts
532
Awards
1
Some argue he doesn’t owe the casino a penny because they agreed to his requests before spreading the game..............
:confused:
very strange, yes!
:elefant:


The truth when you make big money a lot of weird stuff happens!
very strange, yes!

your friends come back, relatives who never came, come, and people love you..........

hahahahaahahahahahahahahah
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
10,252
Awards
1
As I understand it, the casino suggested Ivey to come in and play a nose bleed stakes casino game, he outsmarted them without breaking any rules, and then they cried like a baby and went to the court. I have no sympathy for that, although in Iveys shoe I would not have accepted any offer to play casino games.
 
F

FlopGrinder

Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 23, 2019
Total posts
46
Always fun to watch Phil Ivey play :D he is my fav.
 
KUN_AGUERO_KROOS

KUN_AGUERO_KROOS

Visionary
Joined
Oct 19, 2014
Total posts
607
Awards
2
As I understand it, the casino suggested Ivey to come in and play a nose bleed stakes casino game, he outsmarted them without breaking any rules, and then they cried like a baby and went to the court. I have no sympathy for that, although in Iveys shoe I would not have accepted any offer to play casino games.

According to your logic, counting cards in blackjack is "outsmarting" the house
 
L

LotharMcDowner

Rock Star
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Total posts
229
He knowingly exploited non-regulation game equipment. That's cheating in every game I know. A lot of reports accuse him of knowing that specific batch of cards was defective and following them around the world to exploit. That's cheating, smart, but still cheating, he got caught, shame on him. Casino was stupid, but even if a dumb clerk at the bank overpays me, I still have to give the money back.
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
10,252
Awards
1
He knowingly exploited non-regulation game equipment. That's cheating in every game I know. A lot of reports accuse him of knowing that specific batch of cards was defective and following them around the world to exploit. That's cheating, smart, but still cheating, he got caught, shame on him. Casino was stupid, but even if a dumb clerk at the bank overpays me, I still have to give the money back.

Is it not the responsibility of the casino to supply an untainted set of cards?
 
smallfrie

smallfrie

Lucky Ducky
Loyaler
Joined
Sep 9, 2015
Total posts
2,482
Awards
2
He knowingly exploited non-regulation game equipment. That's cheating in every game I know. A lot of reports accuse him of knowing that specific batch of cards was defective and following them around the world to exploit. That's cheating, smart, but still cheating, he got caught, shame on him. Casino was stupid, but even if a dumb clerk at the bank overpays me, I still have to give the money back.
I agree, if he had used this advantage against anyone who thinks it was not cheating, I think they would have a different view about it. Using marked or defective cards to gain an unfair advantage is cheating, it does not matter who supplied the cards if you become aware of a mark or defect on cards you have a responsibility to make the other party aware of it. Just because the injured party is a casino and not a player does not change your obligation to play the game fairly.
 
Last edited:
L

likesithere

Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 17, 2016
Total posts
28
Phil Ivey has fought the MGM-owned casino since 2016 over a what the casino claims, and the courts agree, Ivey cheated the house during a series of Baccarat sessions. But the poker pro argues he was only playing the game by the agreed-upon rules of the game and so far appears to stick to what he believes. We know this argument has been settled in court, but do you think the courts got it right?

Pay Up or Else: Borgata Wants 2019 WSOP Winnings from Phil Ivey
the ruling has been given right or wrong it is the law so Mr. Ivey pay up or appeal
 
antonis32123

antonis32123

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
Total posts
5,104
Awards
19
I hope Ivey and the Borgata casino find a way for a mutual benefitial compromise .
I believe both sides have their fault , Ivey for using this technique and Bovada for allowing him to play with these cards hoping he will lose again a lot of money .
I don't think many believe that Borgata personnel was so naive and didn't know Ivey was using this edge-sorting technique , when they allowed him to use this specific deck of cards and accepted Ivey's proposals 1st to rotate 180° the cards everytime and 2nd how to shuffle the cards them :rolleyes: ;)
 
E

ekgbeat

Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2016
Total posts
1,359
Awards
2
I don't think that the casino is correct here. They have all of the money and technology to prevent players from having an edge. I view this close to the edge that BJ players had by card counting, and the casino should have handled this the same way. They paid out those players, but they took preventive measures to make sure it didn't happen to the degree that it was. They changed the number of decks, and worst case they banned the card counters, but they paid them their winnings. Pay Ivy, thank him for finding a flaw that other can't exploit any more, and ban him from all of your casinos. <end rant>
 
MattRyder

MattRyder

Tech that Works
Joined
Sep 12, 2013
Total posts
8,011
Awards
14
Okay, so if I go to that casino and ask for a specific deck of cards is there a chance in hell they'll agree? NFW.

Nevertheless, the facts speak for themselves:
  • Unbeknownst to the casino, he and companion Cheng Yin Sun were able to spot a flaw in the cards’ back-side patterns.
  • The use of those cards was approved by a Borgata manager, and at no point did Ivey or Sun touch the cards.
Where is the cheating? I see an Observant, Adaptable, Strategic, Calculating and Decisive player (see my signature block below for the characteristics of good players), an inept casino, and a bunch of rich lawyers getting richer. No more, no less.
 
Last edited:
Shells

Shells

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Dec 18, 2010
Total posts
15,804
Awards
14
This is an excerpt from the article and probably why I'm not sure if the courts got it right or not ---

You Be the Judge

Ivey won approximately $10 million at Borgata in Baccarat by using an edge-sorting technique that gave him an advantage over the house. The casino claims this practice is unfair, and thus, he cheated to win.
But the poker pro argues he was simply playing by rules agreed to by the house. Prior to the Baccarat sessions, Ivey asked for and was granted permission to use a specific deck of cards that allowed him to know which card was coming out of the deck next.
Some argue he doesn’t owe the casino a penny because they agreed to his requests before spreading the game. But the civil courts view things differently. And their opinion is, technically, the only one that matters.
 
wagon596

wagon596

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Total posts
3,767
Awards
12
Not sure which way I lean on this,,, did he mark the cards ? No. Is it his responsibility to make sure the cards are not tainted? No.

Is card counting in Blackjack cheating? No. But the Casino will kick you out if they suspect that you are counting... So to me, they want their cake and eat it too, and the hell with the player.

Also from what I've heard (not written in stone) Casinos put higher pay off % slots next to lines for Shows and restaurants, by doing this aren't they trying to manipulate the people to play other slots, is this illegal, No. But is it taking advantage of the situation. Yes.. Sound familiar ?
 
Last edited:
muse713

muse713

Visionary
Joined
Mar 31, 2014
Total posts
943
They house loses and hell breaks loose. Keep fighting Phil
 
G

GrannySmit77

Rock Star
Joined
Aug 23, 2014
Total posts
218
Not sure which way I lean on this,,, did he mark the cards ? No. Is it his responsibility to make sure the cards are not tainted? No.

Is card counting in Blackjack cheating? No. But the Casino will kick you out if they suspect that you are counting... So to me, they want their cake and eat it too, and the hell with the player.

Also from what I've heard (not written in stone) Casinos put higher pay off % slots next to lines for Shows and restaurants, by doing this aren't they trying to manipulate the people to play other slots, is this illegal, No. But is it taking advantage of the situation. Yes.. Sound familiar ?
I completely agree, he tried to improve his odds in agame where the odds were against him. He did not mark or alter the cards. The casino agreed to all his demands ( I think they would turn a bit the cards). Everything was ok , as long as he lost. When he started winning, that's when the casino starting to cause problems. I might be wrong, but they didn't even realise anything until his lawsuit in England happened.
 
D

DAVID KEHRER

Legend
Joined
Dec 15, 2015
Total posts
1,334
Awards
8
From what i have read i dont think phil did anything wrong but win there money.
 
P

PLAYFUL1

Legend
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Total posts
1,572
Awards
2
I count cards all the time in Blackjack and it doesn't seem 2 help much hehehe
 
Top