'Black Friday' and associated fallout megathread

OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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From Full Tilt: “Full Tilt Poker has no accounting of the millions of dollars of player funds that were seized by the government.”

I could be wrong but I'm reading this as they have no accounting of the funds that were in limbo with payment processors at the time of the shutdown - that they're not sure at this stage which checks have been cashed / honoured and which ones haven't been.

Funds in player accounts were never frozen. If I've been following correctly though a whole bunch of payment processor accounts have been...

Edit: one other thought. The DoJ is giving them back their websites to facilitate the return of player funds but how exactly are they going to get the money to you? I assume they'll have to come to some special arrangement with the DoJ since their existing system of payment processors are what got them into trouble in the first place...
 
the Styb

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Didn't think of that, Oz. Good point.

"as soon as a suitable processor is found"

Meaning the minute Congress figures out which American bank they own the most stock in…


The UIGEA Board by M Styborski, on Flickr
 
Charade You Are

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Wonder what will happen to the cashout I requested this am?

Cashout request time: 2011/04/20 11:42 ET

Cashout amount: USD xxxxxxxxx
A check for USD xxxxxxxxx will be issued.
Credit transaction #xxxxxxxxxx
The check will be issued by our payment processor, NOT by pokerstars. If you have any questions or require further clarification please contact the customer support number detailed on the check. Alternatively, you may contact "PokerStars Cashier" <cashier1@pokerstars.eu>

Please allow up to 72 hours for cashout processing.

Note: USD Checks will be delivered by regular mail and are expected to arrive within 15 business days. We strongly recommend that you deposit your check at your bank and avoid using check cashing stores.
 
Debi

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According to that link it will be reversed and credited back to your PS account. Then later you will be able to withdraw it.
 
Charade You Are

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According to that link it will be reversed and credited back to your PS account. Then later you will be able to withdraw it.

Thanks. That link doesnt work for me. I tried changing it to .eu and that didnt work either.
 
lilybo

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110421/ap_on_hi_te/us_online_poker_fallout

LAS VEGAS – America's multibillion-dollar run at the online poker tables has been interrupted by what could be a killer hand: federal prosecutions of the three biggest websites.
The government has blocked U.S. gamblers from logging on to the offshore sites, which are accused of tricking and bribing banks into processing billions of dollars in illegal profits. Now gamblers who dreamed of enormous prizes in Las Vegas, or even used online poker to make a living, can't access online bankrolls that in some cases reach six figures.
Some predict the American online poker industry, estimated to be worth up to $6 billion, may fold under the weight of the investigations as it threatens amateur and professional players, televised tournaments and the marketing machine that helped Texas Hold 'em emerge from smoky casinos to become a dominant form of gambling on the Internet.
"It just cut the head off of everything," said Robert Fellner, a 27-year-old Las Vegas poker pro whose roughly $250,000 bankroll on PokerStars was frozen after the indictments. "It's scary. It's much more scary."
Pay-to-play poker sites have been on shaky legal ground for years in the U.S., but the government hadn't prevented gamblers from playing on the three biggest sites — PokerStars, full tilt poker and Absolute Poker — before last week's indictments of 11 executives and bank officials.
More than 75 company bank accounts in 14 countries have been frozen, and authorities are seeking $3 billion in fines and restitution.
Poker players, meanwhile, now see an FBI notice where the websites once were. Some of them had treated their poker accounts like savings accounts, leaving significant portions of their net worth online and ready to wager anytime.
It appears that they will get that money back, though it's not clear when. The government said Wednesday it had reached agreements with PokerStars and Full Tilt Poker to restore the companies' domain names so they can return money to U.S. players. PokerStars said on its website that said it expected cashouts to be available to U.S. residents within several weeks
Full Tilt said in a statement that the agreement was a good first step, but that it won't be able to give players refunds until the government gives up control of those funds. U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara of the Southern District of New York, however, said in a statement that "no individual player accounts were ever frozen or restrained."
Fellner, who won more than $57,000 at a small world series of poker tournament in 2007, is more concerned about how he would make a living without online poker. He said cards have been his only source of income since he was 19, when he matched his annual salary working at a dry cleaner by playing online poker for three months.
Since then, he said he's made more money each year and now plays for stakes that require $5,000 to $15,000 just to comfortably buy in and compete. He wouldn't specify how much he has earned so far this year.
Fellner relies on online poker because the Omaha game he prefers isn't normally offered at his stakes in the vast majority of Sin City casinos. He said he could support himself with savings while he waits for things to play out, but doesn't know what he'll do if he can't replace his income.
"I have friends on Wall Street — they could always get me an interview," he said.
Federal authorities consider the poker sites illegal and follow a 2006 law that made it a crime to process financial transactions related to illegal online gambling. But last week's indictments are the government's first attempt to hold poker site operators to that law.
Players and companies have long argued that the 2006 law didn't properly define illegal gambling or outlaw online poker, which many consider a game that involves more skill than luck.
Unlike games such as blackjack, players gamble against each other, not the casino. Casinos and Internet sites that host poker collect a small percentage of each pot for running the game.
PokerStars and Full Tilt have stopped offering real-money play in the United States, while Absolute has not, according to PokerScout.com, a site that tracks traffic and real-money play on online poker sites. All three sites have free sites using ".net" domain names, and have switched to European domains to keep the gambling flowing outside the United States.

PokerStars and Full Tilt have been telling players through Twitter and other means that their balances are safe.
A customer service representative for Absolute who did not provide a last name said in an email to the AP that the company has suspended deposits, withdrawals and transfers for customers based in the United States.
After the indictments, dubbed "Black Friday" in poker circles, worldwide online poker traffic dropped 22 percent from the prior week, said Dan Stewart, the owner of PokerScout.com.
Before Friday, an average of more than 77,000 players were playing poker for real money in cash games online at any given moment over four days last week. That number dropped to just over 60,000 between Saturday and Tuesday, Stewart said.
PokerStars traffic fell 24 percent, Full Tilt traffic fell 49 percent and traffic on the network that includes Absolute fell 45 percent.
Other sites like bodog.com and CarbonPoker.com have remained open to American players and saw spikes in traffic in the past week, but their increases are meager compared with the number of players that have stayed offline, Stewart said.
Alexander Ripps, a legal analyst in Washington for independent gambling market analysis firm Gambling Compliance, said it's not yet clear who might step in to take over the U.S. market. The firm estimates the market to be worth $4 billion to $6 billion, but the government's pursuit of the top companies suggests the entire industry is in danger.
Brian Balsbaugh, an agent for famous poker professionals including Daniel Negreanu, Tom Dwan and Phil Hellmuth, said the effects go far beyond players. Full Tilt and PokerStars have spent some $200 million per year on marketing, he said, directly or indirectly funding almost all poker-related television shows, news websites, magazines and several live tournaments.
"These companies, Full Tilt and PokerStars, were wholly responsible for the poker economy and its growth over the last five years," Balsbaugh said.
Cable network ESPN, which counted Full Tilt and PokerStars among its sponsors for poker programming, said in a statement that it has moved quickly to remove TV shows and Web content related to the companies, though it still plans to air the World Series of Poker, by far the most popular tournament for fans and players. An airing of part of the North American Poker Tour — a live tournament organized by PokerStars — was pulled on Monday.
World Series of Poker officials declined to comment, and it's not immediately clear how the indictments will affect its attendance. The 2011 series in Las Vegas includes 58 bracelet tournaments that cost at least $1,500 to enter, including the main event, poker's richest tournament.
Last year's $10,000 buy-in main event attracted 7,319 players and was won by a previously unknown Canadian professional, Jonathan Duhamel, who took home $8.9 million.
There haven't been many major studies on Internet poker and addiction, but a Harvard Medical School study from 2009 said most people who gamble online do so moderately.
For Michael Borg, the loss of online poker has meant he's already started sending resumes for 9-to-5 jobs just three months after deciding to try to make it as a full-time pro. Like Fellner and many others, he is more frustrated with the U.S. government than the companies that hold his $3,000 bankroll.
"It's like we're collateral damage in a war," he said. "What it comes down to is the government wants a piece of that money."
The 25-year-old Sacramento, Calif., community college student said he planned to use poker income to put himself through college without debt, but now he thinks he'll have to find another way.
"It's been stripped away from me," he said. "It's actually really frustrating because I'm pretty good at it."
Fellner said he's not in a rush because he's saved and invested money elsewhere. He said he's waiting to see how the industry will react, and trying to stay optimistic.
As a last resort, Fellner said he'll consider moving out of the country to keep playing online.
___ Associated Press writer Larry Neumeister in New York contributed to this report.
 
Stick66

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Edit: one other thought. The DoJ is giving them back their websites to facilitate the return of player funds but how exactly are they going to get the money to you? I assume they'll have to come to some special arrangement with the DoJ since their existing system of payment processors are what got them into trouble in the first place...
This article says there will be a DOJ "monitor". So maybe they'll let a US processor do the job this one time for this specific purpose.

http://www.gambling911.com/gambling...-domain-names-facilitate-payments-042011.html
 
Dreams of Tragedy

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alease the micros are having fun with this
 
the Styb

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LOL! Yahoo "News"… almost as accurate as Fox!

They're not prosecuting the companies, but those who own the companies. Also, it would be refreshing to see someone in the mainstream media understand that the company WEBSITE is different from the company poker client.
 
lilybo

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Hmmm. Lee Watkinson is sitting in a freeroll on FT.

Lee Watkinson

American professional poker player Lee Watkinson’s calm demeanor and calculated aggressive style makes him one of the last players you would ever want to face at a poker table! The well-known winner began playing poker at the tender age of 17 and is now endorsed by Full Tilt Poker.

Read more: http://www.pokerpages.com/player-profile/lee-watkinson.htm#ixzz1K7M3bgSx
www.pokerpages.com

I saw his pic just now, I thought he was older because of his name, lol.​
 
Charade You Are

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Also, it would be refreshing to see someone in the mainstream media understand that the company WEBSITE is different from the company poker client.

No one has yet.
 
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The contrast between the messages on two big sites makes me with I had more money on starts than FTP. Unfortunately for I have 4 times as much on tilt. :(

Stars sounds professional and determined to get me my money. Tilt sounds pissy, whiny and like they are looking for an excuse not to. :(
Tilt:
Full Tilt Poker™ Message to US Players

Full Tilt Poker has always maintained the highest levels of integrity and compliance with the law. Due to recent events, Full Tilt Poker is unable to accept ‘Real Money’ play from customers residing in the United States. However, please know that your funds are safe and secure. We are working with the United States Attorney's Office in order to get players their money back as soon as possible.


To further clarify any confusion, although the government did not seize individual players' accounts, it did seize the bank accounts in which those funds are held. At this time, the government has refused to release the seized bank accounts.


Full Tilt Poker continues to believe that neither its affiliated companies nor its executives violated the law in the United States, and it plans to mount a vigorous defense.


And Stars:
20 April 2010 - On 15 April 2010, PokerStars ceased providing real-money poker to residents of the United States and related territories. Real money play and deposits by the US residents are strictly prohibitead.
All existing United States PokerStars customers are entitled to the full return of any funds held in their accounts, and PokerStars will work diligently to expedite those withdrawals. An agreement has been reached with the US Department of Justice to allow for these cashouts. All PokerStars player deposits are completely safe. More information here.
Players from the United States can continue to play on our site for play money only. New players who wish to create an account will need to do so using our play-money-only software, available at http://www.pokerstars.net.
 
Debi

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Yea - pretty happy most of mine is at PS now. (Though between me and Joe we still have a significant amount at FT)
 
TheKAAHK

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The contrast between the messages on two big sites makes me with I had more money on starts than FTP. Unfortunately for I have 4 times as much on tilt. :(

Stars sounds like they're ready to throw in the towel and take it up the ass. Tilt sounds like they're actually going to try to fight this crap and continue to try for the US market when they get their accounts unlocked.

FYP (at least that's the way I read those statements)
 
WVHillbilly

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FYP (at least that's the way I read those statements)
Disagree completely. If the US said everything is good to go tomorrow. All are welcome. I'd move every $$ I have on FTP to Stars and I HATE the Stars interface.
 
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dakotaxx said:
Yea - pretty happy most of mine is at PS now. (Though between me and Joe we still have a significant amount at FT)

Quit bragging. :)

At least it seems like I'll be able to get my stars money which is enough to buy me in to a local live game. I just hope FTP comes through since then I will be ROLLED for the live game.
 
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TheKAAHK

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Disagree completely. If the US said everything is good to go tomorrow. All are welcome. I'd move every $$ I have on FTP to Stars and I HATE the Stars interface.

So you are willing to play at the site that, at this time at least, seems like they want nothing more to do with your market?

I mean I understand that you are all hearing what you want to hear (ie: it's all about the benjamins) but I just find it odd that Stars and the DoJ have an "agreement" going on, and Stars is willing to just pay back the players and move on, while Tilt is at least fighting this the whole way. Sure they haven't told everybody the magic words they want to hear, but at least it seems they are taking some sort of stance against this. Unless I have totally missed something.... (and feel free to correct me f I did)
 
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So you are willing to play at the site that, at this time at least, seems like they want nothing more to do with your market?

I mean I understand that you are all hearing what you want to hear (ie: it's all about the benjamins) but I just find it odd that Stars and the DoJ have an "agreement" going on, and Stars is willing to just pay back the players and move on, while Tilt is at least fighting this the whole way. Sure they haven't told everybody the magic words they want to hear, but at least it seems they are taking some sort of stance against this. Unless I have totally missed something.... (and feel free to correct me f I did)

You need to be aware of a couple things.

1. "Taking on" the US DOJ is dumb.

2. Whether or not you agree with the legislation the DOJ is enforcing, these poker companies got caught with their hands in the cookie jar, their diddles in the neighbors wife, their pants down, and ten or twelve other mismatched cliches.

Stars is handling this correctly.
 
WVHillbilly

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Stars and Tilt made the same agreement with the DoJ as far as I can tell. Both PokerStar.com and fulltiltpoker.com are up and running. If I wanted to go with the maverick thus far that's clearly UB/AP but I wouldn't trust them with FR winnings.
 
TheKAAHK

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You need to be aware of a couple things.

1. "Taking on" the US DOJ is dumb.

2. Whether or not you agree with the legislation the DOJ is enforcing, these poker companies got caught with their hands in the cookie jar, their diddles in the neighbors wife, their pants down, and ten or twelve other mismatched cliches.

Stars is handling this correctly.

"Correctly" is subjective.

And yes, they did get caught with their pants down. I just disagree with you guys on how I feel about their approach to the situation now that the DoJ has stepped in.

IMO neither are handling it correctly, but I really don't care to get into that can of worms. As I said, "correctly" is subjective and we can argue all day what a correct approach might be.

It's sort of like everyone speculating on how the US is going to tax the sites if they were allowed back into the market. Post after post on the taxation aspect that is just speculation, and are not really doing anything to help the cause, which is to stop the unethical seizure of millions of dollars from Americans' online accounts, and stopping the freedom of choice in where they can spend their already taxed to death incomes. (Or stopping some incomes, as it were)

And I hear you Hillbilly, but I haven't trusted UB/AP for years. They can burn for all I care...
 
TheKAAHK

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Upon re-reading my post, I understand that there is nothing that can be done to stop what has already happened. What I meant is to stop further instances of this same bull, and possibly reverse some things that have already transpired.
 
Charade You Are

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From a PPA statement:

Over the past few days, PPA members sent more than 65,000 emails and letters, and made thousands of phone calls to the DoJ, the Administration and Congress demanding access to the money in their online accounts and condemning the DoJ’s declaration of war on poker.

Kind of disappointed that there were only 65,000. If 15 million americans have poker accounts, and the PPA has a million members, that's a pretty poor showing.
 
TheKAAHK

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From a PPA statement:

Over the past few days, PPA members sent more than 65,000 emails and letters, and made thousands of phone calls to the DoJ, the Administration and Congress demanding access to the money in their online accounts and condemning the DoJ’s declaration of war on poker.

Kind of disappointed that there were only 65,000. If 15 million americans have poker accounts, and the PPA has a million members, that's a pretty poor showing.

Wow, that is a disappointing number! I guess it is because most recreational players are either too scared or just simply too uninformed to take any sort of action.
 
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