Alleged cheating on Stones Live

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Pwohar43

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Why would she be so obvious if they didn’t want to get caught??
But you have to feel confident people aren’t cheating to play
 
puzzlefish

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There's nothing obvious besides the win rate. I don't think I would tolerate Joey Ingram's 5 hour video, but the highlighted hand with AK didn't seem that special.
 
zinzir

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So the accusers use the player's win rate as sole evidence of cheating. That's similar to Burger King accusing McDonald's of making burgers out of human meat, and the only evidence being "their burgers are too delicious and they are selling too many of them" :)
 
Andrew Popov

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Such strange decisions are in obvious hands. It is very likely that someone tells him which cards are dealt to the players and which will be laid out on the table. Of course, no casino does not admit that it has a shell player at the table, because such things cannot be done without the participation of the institution itself.
 
smallfrie

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Now that an allegations have been made, I'll wait for some serious investigation and evidence. I have tons of popcorn. :)
 
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xy23

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A 5 hour youtube video?
That's dedication right there
 
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LotharMcDowner

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I watched a fair amount of Ingram's video... I agree with the author of the 2nd article, the math is pretty clearly against this guy having this kind of run. I would never play with him or set foot in that club (since they failed to uphold the integrity of the game). The thing I can't (and no-one else can) figure out is how... he must be getting the info regarding not just hand strength, but specific cards to be able to pull these moves. Is someone in the control room is feeding the info, or there is a surveillance device in the room feeding info to a 3rd party who then forwards to the villain? He gets the specific info... during the preflop? Thats a lot of info. Is it a leg buzzer that's programmed? A cell phone sounds too obvious. Leg buzzer with radio receiver would get around cell phone jammers too...

The biggest issue with all of this is the black eye it gives to legitimate poker and gaming in general. We need legalization and regulation in most US states to prevent things like this from happening, unfortunately these events give fuel to opponents who vilify all gambling and gamblers.
 
Poker_Mike

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An alleged cheating scandal on Stones Live, a cash game live-stream show at Stones Gambling Hall in Northern California, has rocked the poker community.

What are your views?

‘Stones Live’ Alleged Cheating Scandal Dominates Poker Twitter Chatter


Wow. If you can't figure out how the "cheating" occurred then there is NO proof.

I agree with a thread poster that the highlighted AK hand is a good fold. I mean his opponent shoved on the flop. It's hard to fold top top on a K8x flop but live reads can be golden. Plus many of these players have played with each other before and know each other's play and tells.

Then there is another highlighted hand where Mike has 96o vs. 98h on a 64KAA board and I think winning that hand was also well thought out. If the guy doesn't have a pair or a K or an A - then Mike is good.

The math IS suspicious but jeez I would love to play with this guy for 5-hours to see if I can learn something from him.

The idea that the "method" of cheating is viewing cards in the booth and "relaying" that information to Mike is complicated. Granted his calls and folds are also complicated. But by using Occam's Razor - Mike is a talented player.

I've witnessed maybe one or two dozen complete hero folds in my life in live poker. Folds that the player shows because he is sure that he is beat and the table is completely gaw-fahd over it. Even to the point of yelling at the player folding some super strong hand - just to be shown by his smiling opponent how badly beat he was. And when asked I always receive the same answer, "It was the only thing that made sense."

Often I am amazed and those players get a page in my Hero book (no not sandwiches).

But the two hands I mention above seem routine by an experienced player that thought the hand through and reached the correct conclusion.

Good luck !
 
57noona

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There doesn't seem to be any proof of him cheating. Maybe he is that good at reading people. As to why he still plays 1-3 or 5-5 it doesn't matter. The pros look down on him for playing these limits if he is that good is wrong in my book. Maybe he hasn't been lucky enough in the bigger games that he has played. Or maybe he likes playing in smaller games.
 
rrickir

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I wouldn't have the patience to watch that 5 hour video but I have read through everybody's comments here. Maybe that's saying if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is a duck? LOL meaning if a lot of people suspect cheating of some kind and it's too good to be true then there possibly is some cheating going on in that situation and people that play at a table with him should be aware of the situation at least
 
manzanillo53

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I have never seen this but just by reading the article, one would have to assume something is not right.
 
rrickir

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Lol. I just had a similar situation in the cards chat freeroll just now where of course it was super hard for me to fold. I had Ace King and the Flop came king 3 7... I bet and the other guy called and then we ended up all in and he had a set of Threes which knocked me out just now .... I am definitely not good enough as the guy mike, that's getting accused of cheating at that casino cuz those are the kind of hands I guess he was folding a lot,,, why people thought he was cheating.:):) lol
 
frank174

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prove he's cheating ,shouldn't accuse someone of cheating without proof,that's just bad manners
 
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aj88xa869

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IMHO the most suspicious part is that he sticks to low stakes after that win rate for so long. If he can truly read tells so well, then why hasn't he ever up?


It would make more sense either way you look at it. Even if he is in it just for the fun, it should be much more fun to play different stakes and in turn more of a challenging game. At least once in a while.

And obviously everyone needs $ financial security to live well and retire, or for a rainy day fund. Why not try to earn more ?
 
YungWan

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I read the article but I don't think they mentioned which method they suspect he is using to cheat which I don't think is fair. I have watched the Stones stream on many occasions and so this comes as quite a shock!! :confused::eek:
 
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I have no intention of wading through 5 hours of Joey Ingram- he sometimes makes a lot of sense and other times doesn't.

But, I did bother with some follow up and watched some Stones play, some older interviews and a bit of Doug Polk's take. And before we go down that road it should also be underlined that several people have spoken up on Postle's behalf claimed he is a great reader of the game...yadda, yadda, yadda.

The issue that bugs me is not Postle himself (his win rate looks suspicious alone) but the whole mealy-mouthy approach to this scandal.
If true, Postle cannot be acting alone, that makes no sense. So he must be in cahoots with the casino itself or casino employees. So if you are going to target an individual target his co-conspirators as well, otherwise the reporting feels disingenuous.

This recent run of streams in which Postle played (where he was a winner at every session) amounted to eleven according to Polk and amounted to $ 60,000 in gains (and others argue go back 25 sessions).

That's chump change compared to the value of the casino and its operations. I can imagine an individual employee being stupid enough to engage in a scam but can't imagine the property itself would risk losing everything to scam thousands of dollars only. And without the casino itself involved I would love to know how one or two individuals could possibly pull this off.
 
imhighhommie

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Went down the rabbit hole on twitter.

Props to Joe Ingram for doing a lot of work.

Absolutely wild story, as terrible as it sounds I feel like he could have gotten away with this if he'd been less greedy. Bad look all around, but glad they caught a cheater.
 
Poker_Mike

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I have no intention of wading through 5 hours of Joey Ingram- he sometimes makes a lot of sense and other times doesn't.

But, I did bother with some follow up and watched some Stones play, some older interviews and a bit of Doug Polk's take. And before we go down that road it should also be underlined that several people have spoken up on Postle's behalf claimed he is a great reader of the game...yadda, yadda, yadda.

The issue that bugs me is not Postle himself (his win rate looks suspicious alone) but the whole mealy-mouthy approach to this scandal.
If true, Postle cannot be acting alone, that makes no sense. So he must be in cahoots with the casino itself or casino employees. So if you are going to target an individual target his co-conspirators as well, otherwise the reporting feels disingenuous.

This recent run of streams in which Postle played (where he was a winner at every session) amounted to eleven according to Polk and amounted to $ 60,000 in gains (and others argue go back 25 sessions).

That's chump change compared to the value of the casino and its operations. I can imagine an individual employee being stupid enough to engage in a scam but can't imagine the property itself would risk losing everything to scam thousands of dollars only. And without the casino itself involved I would love to know how one or two individuals could possibly pull this off.


I gotta agree with these points.

Why would JIngram spend 5-hours analyzing this player? Joe is a good pro and so cheating in his business IS his business. And he's made it a point to analyze online cheaters. But still...

Mike seems to be a good player that is very comfortable at lower limits because he wants to be the big fish in the small bowl. I dunno.

Lot of sour grapes?

Good luck !
 
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There is absolutely no dought in my mind, that someone from the staff at Stones passed on information about the other players hole cards to Mike, presumably via his cell-phone. There is way to much pointing in that direction for it all to just be written off as a coincidence:

* He is often looking down at something in his lap
* He has known connections to the casino (staff)
* In some of the hands the graphic suddenly changed
* His winrate is off the charts
* Some of his plays just simply dont make sense

As for the latter point, sure a single hand prove nothing in itself. Sometimes people just make a bad play. But when you combine calling off a 3-way all in with 54 offsuit with folding KK in another similar spot, then its really difficult to imagine the same player doing both of that, unless he know his opponents cards. A poker player can be a nit or a gambler, but he can not be a nit AND a gambler at the same time.

And its not just those two hands. In some hands Mike make incredibly nitty laydowns like folding top pair to a single bet, and he just check-call the river in a very small pot, when he has the nut flush, and his opponent has a straight flush on a paired board. But then in another hand he call KK twice in a 4-way pot on AJ9A, and as by magic noone has an A. The aggressor is bluffing, and the two people overcalling behind Mike have JX and QT, so his KK is actually good. Its as, if he knew their cards! Which in fact he almost certainly did.
 
belladonna05

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Stones has extended their inquiry...
https://twitter.com/StonesGambling/status/1179504760564510720
 
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I read the article, but I'm not watching a 5 hour video lol

What was the action on the K8x hand? Pre? Post? If he ended up betting large on the flop and gets shoved on, of course he's going to fold AK....nothing abnormal about that. Maybe kind of nitty, but not cheating. I'm going out on a limb, but I'm sure there's at least a handful of top pros that would have folded, too.

As far as playing low stakes, maybe he likes the soft games that attract the fish? Why jump up to $25/$50+ NL where you're playing against tougher opponents? Play where you feel most comfortable...
 
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As much as it can't be proven, at least not yet, there's absolutely no way this guy isn't cheating. Clearly looking down at his phone where information is being provided. I don't know how, it may not ever be able to be proven, but I'd make a big big bet that this dude was cheating.
 
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