The Alleged Cheaters Allowed To Play at the WSOP

[caracaski220]

I hoped someone else would post this rather than me (I do not want this to be my schtick) but after a couple of days I feel that it does need to be mentioned.

All four of the most prominent alleged cheaters have been allowed to play in the WSOP in spite of the fact the EPT and Triton appear to have banned them.

Bryn Kenney, Ali Imsirovic, Jake Schindler and Sergi Reixach all showed and entered the $100K Bounty High Roller with Imsirovic making the final table.

Shaun Deeb had words with Bryn Kenney and then Ali Imsirovic and Dan Smith asked Imsirovic if he was going to make a statement with some players threatening to boycott some other events if they register.

Needless to say, a lot of people disappointed.

https://www.pokernews.com/news/2022/05/poker-cheaters-2022-wsop-kenney-imsirovic-schindler-41293.htm

I agree with you. Cheaters should be banned from all games!

 

[caracaski220]

I'd already made note of Kenney playing back on GG in the 'blacklist' thread.

I have consistently maintained one thing, that Kenney in particular and then to a degree Schindler and Imsirovic had GG Poker over a barrel.

GG Poker allowed Kenney to run rampant on their site before their drive to go 'legit' in North America. His agencies, his stables, his throwing private games to target marks, his rakeback etc etc. This is not anything which is in dispute as Kenney has admitted to all those things. What is in dispute is just how much he bilked from certain individuals. Lauren Roberts Sharkscope confirmed she lost over $2 million over a short span in games Kenney and his stable were running.

However, on a simple level, Kenney and his agents were recruiting players to GG predominantly from the US though it was illegal for US based players to play at the site. Which meant one of two things. GG allowed US players to use the site directly or they encouraged the use of VPN's to access the site - either if which was breaking the law ( I mean, anyone got any alternative explanation?)

So my position has been Kenney has always had leverage over GG and this would explain why at the WSOP this year all three of the key cheaters (and please remember there are at least forty others that were never revealed) were allowed to roll up and play even though certain entities such as GG were fronting there would be blacklists and Poker Integrity Councils etc.

As I have posed already, my guess would be no retroactive cross industry (as in online and live poker) bans will ever be placed and said Poker Integrity Council will infrequently release a vague statement about a player being banned (they will remain anonymous of course) some monies confiscated with other players reimbursed (again all in a vague manner).

I wish it were otherwise (and that I was proven wrong) but all the indications to date are that 'black lists' and 'integrity' are little more than window dressing. What actually transpired at GG over an extended period is going to remain buried.

As one of the most popular sites, I think GG shoud do something to show it is serious about cheaters, or it is going to cost them.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I'd already made note of Kenney playing back on GG in the 'blacklist' thread.

I have consistently maintained one thing, that Kenney in particular and then to a degree Schindler and Imsirovic had GG Poker over a barrel.

GG Poker allowed Kenney to run rampant on their site before their drive to go 'legit' in North America. His agencies, his stables, his throwing private games to target marks, his rakeback etc etc. This is not anything which is in dispute as Kenney has admitted to all those things. What is in dispute is just how much he bilked from certain individuals. Lauren Roberts Sharkscope confirmed she lost over $2 million over a short span in games Kenney and his stable were running.

However, on a simple level, Kenney and his agents were recruiting players to GG predominantly from the US though it was illegal for US based players to play at the site. Which meant one of two things. GG allowed US players to use the site directly or they encouraged the use of VPN's to access the site - either if which was breaking the law ( I mean, anyone got any alternative explanation?)

So my position has been Kenney has always had leverage over GG and this would explain why at the WSOP this year all three of the key cheaters (and please remember there are at least forty others that were never revealed) were allowed to roll up and play even though certain entities such as GG were fronting there would be blacklists and Poker Integrity Councils etc.

As I have posed already, my guess would be no retroactive cross industry (as in online and live poker) bans will ever be placed and said Poker Integrity Council will infrequently release a vague statement about a player being banned (they will remain anonymous of course) some monies confiscated with other players reimbursed (again all in a vague manner).

I wish it were otherwise (and that I was proven wrong) but all the indications to date are that 'black lists' and 'integrity' are little more than window dressing. What actually transpired at GG over an extended period is going to remain buried.

Do you realize though that Bryn was actually -$700k prior to that recent 2nd place for $190k. His mtt stats/results graph has been a steady downward ski jump since late 2018.
Can you explain how you think this would explain why wsop allows them to play? (the 3 who have been accused recently). Personally I don't think it has anything to do with GGPoker.
fwiw, there's a claim that the majority of players who had their accounts suspended were 'winning' players (although not always the case.. Bryn was losing as were some others who were banned (& well-known to poker community).

 

[Poker Orifice]

Bryn Kenney is doing well at GGPoker. This week he made his way to the GGPoker tables again. He made the final table of the Super MILLIONS event, finishing in 2nd place ($ 190,070). It became clear that his account had not been banned or had been restored.

His account showed almost no activity since Nov. 2020. BUT he did play 3 mtt's in Aug. 2021 & then just started playing on there again recently as of July17/2022. fwiw, he hasn't been doing 'well'. (-$700,000 isn't really 'well' imo)

 

[DS3]

Do you realize though that Bryn was actually -$700k prior to that recent 2nd place for $190k. His mtt stats/results graph has been a steady downward ski jump since late 2018.
Can you explain how you think this would explain why WSOP allows them to play? (the 3 who have been accused recently). Personally I don't think it has anything to do with GGPoker.
fwiw, there's a claim that the majority of players who had their accounts suspended were 'winning' players (although not always the case.. Bryn was losing as were some others who were banned (& well-known to poker community).

What I have said clearly several times before is I believe Kenney (and likely others) has leverage over GG because of what they were allowed to get away with. For instance (yet again) Kenney and his agents were recruiting players to the site as they were playing live tournaments across the US. Kenney guaranteed them access and GG provided it (either directly or via VPN). As I joked a long time ago, is everyone pretending the likes of Lauren Roberts were playing from outside of the US at the time?

So I assume Kenney could expose them if he so wished - he has leverage. Therefore when it came to the speculation about a possible ban for Kenney, Imsirovic and Schindler (after they were kicked out of the EPT Monte Carlo and none appeared at Triton Madrid either) at the WSOP, it of course failed to materialize. Why? Because I presume as the WSOP, GG Poker and PokerGo are all in each others back pockets in terms of co-sponsoring events then it was in nobody's interest to enforce a blacklist. Quite simple really. And would this not be likely born out (as I also pointed out) by Kenney re-emerging after the scandal blew up on PokerGo High Stakes Poker...which is owned by Cary Katz who has been reportedly Bryn Kenney long term backer?

Of course the majority of players were suspended were 'winning'. They were cheating.

 

[valetgll]

If their guilt in leadership has not been proven, then they can play. These are the laws.

 

[DS3]

If their guilt in leadership has not been proven, then they can play. These are the laws.

Incorrect.

As has been detailed previously, Las Vegas casinos by law reserve the right to refuse service to any individual they wish (Slade vs Caeser's, Nevada, 2016). They can remove card counters playing blackjack for instance. Counting cards does not even break any law. In fact most US businesses are covered by this common-law, that businesses are private and as long long as the right to refuse service is not discriminatory (say due to race) business owners can refuse service.

Further, the likes of Imsirovic and Shindler had already been barred from the EPT Monte Carlo and Triton Series Madrid just weeks before the WSOP (and Kenney was a no show also). The WSOP and casinos involved chose to let the players we have discussed play at the WSOP.

 

[DS3]

Oh, bless them!

GG Poker is literally offering an olive branch to previously banned player to apply to rejoin the site. Via the Poker Integrity Council.

Let's file this under laughable things you could not possibly make up.

That along with Bryn Kenney announcing his new online poker site with backers.

GGPoker opens 'olive branch' application window for previously banned cheaters

GGPoker uses its Reddit channel to announce that previously banned cheating windows have three weeks to apply for possible reinstatement.

www.poker.org

 

[S3mper]

Oh, bless them!

GG Poker is literally offering an olive branch to previously banned player to apply to rejoin the site. Via the Poker Integrity Council.

Let's file this under laughable things you could not possibly make up.

That along with Bryn Kenney announcing his new online poker site with backers.

GGPoker opens 'olive branch' application window for previously banned cheaters

GGPoker uses its Reddit channel to announce that previously banned cheating windows have three weeks to apply for possible reinstatement.

www.poker.org

Wouldn't this be potentially a good thing?

It would keep sites from being the judge and jury and I would also assume that in order to be reviewed by a council the evidence of your cheating would have to actually be presented/become public.

 

[DrBadBeat]

The lack of transparency from sites about their alleged cheating makes it hard to ban them.

 

[DS3]

Wouldn't this be potentially a good thing?

It would keep sites from being the judge and jury and I would also assume that in order to be reviewed by a council the evidence of your cheating would have to actually be presented/become public.

Why?

You mean cheaters who have taken other players for what would appear to be considerable sums deserve a second chance? No, not in my book. And what became obvious at the WSOP is the likes of Kenney, Imsirovic and Schindler have no shame as they all showed to play regardless of the accusations out in the public domain. As Matt Berkey said as these scandals unfurled, the fact is some in the poker community seem to wear cheating as a badge of honor - it's cool to use any edge you can.

I have maintained for a while the idea there would be true bans on cheaters was dubious and this confirms it in my opinion. Also, I have now stated several times why I think GG Poker has an issue with this due to their recent history which would appear to have encouraged the likes of Bryn Kenney in his endeavors and the fact that patently they allowed Americans to access the site which was (and largely still is) illegal.

So, in the space of less than a year we have gone from poker professionals themselves demanding something to be done to a 'promise' of bans on line and live (which expired by the time we hit the WSOP) to now an olive branch to prior cheaters?

My belief is that the sites know (and rely on) the fact that cheating is mainly exposed on a higher buy in/roller level so the average player is not going to be too put out at the idea high rollers are shafting each other

 

[S3mper]

Why?

You mean cheaters who have taken other players for what would appear to be considerable sums deserve a second chance? No, not in my book.

Where did I say that?

If an individual gets banned being able to appeal to a third party doesn't equal to getting a second chance.

And again, I would assume that when you appeal you are essentially giving the site permission to release the evidence against you. (Other wise how could a third party uphold these decisions?)

There are also going to be situations where players are either falsely banned or given disproportionate bans.

 

[DS3]

Where did I say that?

If an individual gets banned being able to appeal to a third party doesn't equal to getting a second chance.

And again, I would assume that when you appeal you are essentially giving the site permission to release the evidence against you. (Other wise how could a third party uphold these decisions?)

There are also going to be situations where players are either falsely banned or given disproportionate bans.

Sorry, I am not going down the 'wrongfully accused' route for the sake of a circular argument.

I believe those who cheat others directly out of money tend to be cheaters, period. Which would explain why the likes of Jake Schindler were thrown off pokerstars some years ago, and with the absence of any co-operation in terms of a blacklist, he then repeated his cheating and ultimately got thrown off GG Poker for the same offense.

Then, in terms of GG poker ‘enforcing’ security, as has also been detailed previously, when GG claimed to have thrown 40 players off the site and suspended another forty they said they had confiscated just over $1 million and redistributed it to thousands of players (which obviously would be an indication of how widespread the cheating was). Except as pros came forward stating they were sick of the cheating and lack of enforcement, Alex Foxen, Kristin Bicknell and then Bill Perkins said they believed they had lost a million each through this period of suspect games. Very few details/figures add up.

So personally, no, I would not trust players who have shown a predisposition to cheat and then I am dubious that a site such as GG ever truly addressed the cheating (through various methods) on their site. As noted, GG has not even explained something basic - how all these US players caught up in the scandal were even playing on their site – it was illegal. Can you imagine for instance if PokerStars released some information concerning busting cheaters and then it was revealed it involved US based players? Wouldn't everyone be asking how on earth US players were on the site in the first place?

So color me skeptical but I am not impressed - I feel it is window dressing. I had already guessed when the PIC was announced, the remit was looking forward, nothing would be retroactive. But an olive branch? I guess I was right on that front. And as I have already also stated that any industry blacklists - the supposed intention to ban players on line and live - would remain confidential, period, and the poker playing public would be left in the dark to trust the industry (online sites and brick and mortar establishments) had their backs.

That of course remains to be seen but I will be more than surprised if anyone is named, shamed and then banned in public.

 

[CezarsGhost]

they should not be allowed to play. fear and skepticism is high enuf already

 

[S3mper]

Sorry, I am not going down the 'wrongfully accused' route for the sake of a circular argument.

I didn't say the individuals were wrongfully accused

Also, I think you're having tunnel vision. Having an appeals process goes beyond this specific situation. It also goes beyond the type of cheating of this situation.

But in order to protect those who are either wrongfully banned or banned because of lesser crimes you must open the opportunity to everyone - even those who are clearly guilty. And please keep in mind the "opportunity" being given isn't a second chance to play on the site and try to prove one has changed. The opportunity being presented is to be given a due process.

then I am dubious that a site such as GG ever truly addressed the cheating

You seem to have a somewhat contradicting stance. On one hand you do not trust the site (Neither do I) But on the other hand you want the site to be not only the final decision but the only decision.

Edit: Actually might not be as contradicting as I originally was thinking. As your distrust seems to come from them NOT banning members more so a site incorrectly banning a member.

I think the industry should be pushed to have a third party finding cheaters VS the site themselves. And then from there having an integrity council act as a gaming control board.


--------------------------

Having a third party process put together with trusted members of the community is needed IMO. The current status quo of a site going "You're banned and no you may not look at the evidence" is absurd. Especially if live tournaments begins falling under this umbrella.

how all these US players caught up in the scandal were even playing on their site – it was illegal.

Well, against the ToS not illegal but I know what you mean

There is a legitimate way for that to happen (Not saying that, that was what happened - I have no idea) but US players can play on the site if they aren't located in the US. For instance Negreanu lives in Vegas and plays on the site and is an ambassador of the site.

 

[Poker Orifice]

GGPoker launches new Poker Integrity Council (Aug.1/2022). A five member team lead by Jason Koon & including Fedor, LuckyCHewy, Seth Davies & Nick Petrangelo.
Pokerstars also makes announcement regarding crackdown on cheats.

📰 GGPoker and PokerStars Launch Fight against Poker Ch...

August 1st 2022 promises to be a landmark day in the fight against poker cheats

highstakesdb.com

 

[manzanillo53]

I hoped someone else would post this rather than me (I do not want this to be my schtick) but after a couple of days I feel that it does need to be mentioned.

All four of the most prominent alleged cheaters have been allowed to play in the WSOP in spite of the fact the EPT and Triton appear to have banned them.

Bryn Kenney, Ali Imsirovic, Jake Schindler and Sergi Reixach all showed and entered the $100K Bounty High Roller with Imsirovic making the final table.

Shaun Deeb had words with Bryn Kenney and then Ali Imsirovic and Dan Smith asked Imsirovic if he was going to make a statement with some players threatening to boycott some other events if they register.

Needless to say, a lot of people disappointed.

https://www.pokernews.com/news/2022/05/poker-cheaters-2022-wsop-kenney-imsirovic-schindler-41293.htm

I understand and agree, but it is alleged, remember, innocent until proven quality.

 

[DS3]

I understand and agree, but it is alleged, remember, innocent until proven quality.

I often wish if people reply, they actually ready the full thread and inform themselves of what has transpired, and what is legally permitted.

First, the scandal which Kenney was involved in has already been made public (regarding Lauren Roberts) and it confirmed the fact that she lost over $2 million in games organized by Kenney featuring his stable playing against her. Imsimoric and Schindler were thrown off GG Poker (along with 80 other players half of which were suspended and the other half banned). GG Poker made the bans and suspensions public. Schindler was also kicked off PokerStars some years ago.

Regarding what is allowed (as above and stated previously) under Nevada law casinos reserve the rights to withhold service from anyone they feel fit. If there is strong cause to believe someone has defrauded online, there is no legal demand to 'be found guilty', the casinos (in this case the WSOP) and casinos could have refused all mentioned entry to play.

Finally, there are always going to be problem areas with revealing the exact nature of what has transpired on line in terms of fraud and the formation of black lists and cross industry online and live bans. Francis Lincoln, who heads PokerStars Playing Integrity recently pointed out he believes that fully outing people and then passing information to third parties regarding fraud (one site to another to form black lists) is actually a nonstarter, because it is against the law to share such details.

The reason being is that all sites have confidentiality clauses in their terms of service which are standard in any business handling a clients money. All such details/matters are to be kept in strict confidence and none of this information is allowed to casually (or otherwise) be passed to other parties - ie. by law no one can share such information. So, an online site can ban a player if they believe he has been using Real Time Assistance and a casino can refuse service to anyone at any time but what online sites cannot do is publicly state who and why they have thrown a player off site.

Of course there are exceptional circumstances where someone such as Gordon Vayo sued PokerStars for refusing to pay him his prize after winning an online tournament when the matter was processed in court through the legal system (Vayo lost for using a VPN). But this is not what is being discussed here so blithely citing 'innocent until proven guilty' had little to no bearing on these examples. This is players defrauding other players and if the site believes they have done so, the sites ban them under their terms of service.

Finally, as said, if throwing out 'innocent until proven guilty' as if it did have bearing, note that none of the accused (as in those discussed in the public domain) have sued anyone for defamation or to retrieve funds back from the sites that were said to be confiscated. In some cases they have actually been offered interviews but refused to discuss the matter at all (Imsirovic and Schindler).

If innocent, don't you think someone would try to clear their name?