A Poker Blacklist - can it be done?

Shells

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Over recent weeks there has been a lot of controversy and accusations surrounding a number of well-known poker players involved with cheating. In the meantime, the poker community along with a number of high-profile poker players have been calling for a Black List which would include poker players who have been known and proven to be cheats or have been banned.

CardsChat contributor and poker pro, Chris Wallace, asks if this Black List could actually be put into place? How would it be compiled? Who would be put in charge of it?

Read more on Chris's thoughts here >>> Is a Poker Blacklist Even Possible?

What are your thoughts on the topic?
 
Chica_bonita

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Hello!🙋‍♀️😊
I really think it's impossible.

I can assume that in different casinos and poker rooms there is something that can be called a blacklist. The Hustler Casino Live scandal comes to mind, related to the accusation of the player Julio “Skillsrocks” Cedillo is accused of fraud and banned for life from playing at this casino. Judging by the news, he admitted his guilt.

But should other poker rooms and casinos ban him from playing? I would say yes.
But I understand perfectly well that no poker room or casino will do this, because a lot of nuances immediately pop up: why do this? What is the benefit? What are the consequences of this? How legal is this? and a bunch of nuances.

As an example, I can cite a situation that I associate with this question: a foreign citizen came to a country and was deported for some violation, followed by a ban on entry into the territory of this country. Should all other countries ban him from entering? There are no legal grounds for this.
With poker rooms and casinos, in my opinion, the same thing.

This is my opinion.🤷‍♀️
 
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That was a pretty good article , though regarding legal issues, I think the case made is a little overwrought.

Players who are banned from sites or have money confiscated seldom contest the decision. The most famous case recently was Gordon Vayo who idiotically fought his $700,000 winnings being frozen by pokerstars when they could prove he had used a VPN. He lost. When Ali Imsirovic and Jake Schindler were kicked off GG Poker and GG Poker made a song and dance of confiscating money for the PR exercise, nobody heard a peep from either. But then we venture into murky ground because I am fairly sure they did not have their true winnings confiscated. I believe they got a slap on the wrist financially and were then told to disappear ( I explained this elsewhere). Then, we have the case of Ivey vs The Casinos regarding the ill-fated edge-sorting case where, big surprise. the courts sided with the casinos.

So the scenario of a Casino or poker site being sued into bankruptcy by a player(s) seems just a little far fetched.

But, there is prime example of Casinos enforcing a blacklist which is well known, without legal standing and yet is seldom if ever contested - that of counting cards. Card counting is not illegal but casinos relentlessly monitor blackjack for offenders and then kick them out. It has been proven casinos have circulated a blacklist of players among themselves so as various properties can be aware of potential counters. So, in this case you have casinos acting to bar players who are technically not cheating in the first place. Not only that, there are numerous examples of such players balking at being ejected faced with the casino calling the police as they then claim they are 'trespassing'. Without fail, police will escort them off property because they know the casinos have the right to refuse service to anyone they want.

So I have no idea why Ali Imsirovic and Jake Schindler when registering for the 100K and 50K high rollers early days at the wsop could not have been turned away and told they would not be welcomed to any other WSOP 2022 event - as the European Tour and Triton had done just weeks before. This is where I will agree with Wallace. Lack of concern and desire and as these guys are high rollers, the rake the casinos receive.

Second key point where I agree with Wallace, players lack of concern, contrary to the song and dance some are making. For instance at the above 100K only Shaun Deeb and Dan Smith confronted Imsirovic somewhat briefly. Two of the players noted as most vocally calling for the 'blacklist' Alex Foxen and Chance Kornuth both played the same tourney, regardless. And of course these fields contained some of the most noted players in the world and I heard of no one actually skipping in protest. Obviously, the dilemma is these are opportunities for such players to make a big score so they are not going to take a moral stand. Okay, I get that (sort of) but then spare us the pontificating if you aren't willing to demonstrate you can take a hit on some potential income short term in order to take a meaningful stand.

And as all roads lead to Negreanu, I found it odd when Wallace cited Poker Big Names that needed to take a stand, Hellmuth, Brunsen, Polk and Ingram... he neglected to mention Negreanu. Why? Because Negreanu is the face of GG Poker and GG Poker is now the largest online poker site and a major sponsor of the WSOP. They were also the site which hosted the two latest cheating scandals and have been pretty determined to avoid a full reveal of what took place on their site. Specifically with Bryn Kenney and the fact that they were blatantly allowing US based players to use VPN's to access their site. Which is why i previously argued if a widespread position was taken against players then they might dish the dirt on GG to show it was allowing all types of questionable activities in its site. That's a black eye the industry in terms of the WSOP, PokerGO and GG itself does not want to take. So regarding enforcing a broader blacklist (as in events not just their own site) then I feel it is unlikely it will happen

I had some degree of optimism following the EPT and Tritons stand against cheating but that evaporated with the commencement of the WSOP. Patently, both Paris and Bally's took no position on the matter, neither did the WSOP themselves and as GG Poker and Poker Go are intimately involved as sponsors and production they are not going to assert themselves further either.

My sense is, unless another big scandal erupts which is actually aired transparently in public, momentum will slowly dissipate. and the 'blacklist' will become little more than background noise.
 
MikeCarasone

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It should be done. If you break the rules and are considered a habitual negative entity. Those who scam, steal, cheat should not be afforded the privilege of poker. Other pro leagues suspend and penalize the bad apples. It’s certainly time to police poker and clean up the dirt.
 
TeUnit

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They should really do something, it seems like there is no incentive for the cheaters to stop cheating.
 
S3mper

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But, there is prime example of Casinos enforcing a blacklist which is well known, without legal standing and yet is seldom if ever contested - that of counting cards. Card counting is not illegal but casinos relentlessly monitor blackjack for offenders and then kick them out. It has been proven casinos have circulated a blacklist of players among themselves so as various properties can be aware of potential counters. So, in this case you have casinos acting to bar players who are technically not cheating in the first place. Not only that, there are numerous examples of such players balking at being ejected faced with the casino calling the police as they then claim they are 'trespassing'. Without fail, police will escort them off property because they know the casinos have the right to refuse service to anyone they want.
Kicking out card counters may not be legal. The one case in which I know of that went to court is when Ken Uston sued in New Jersey (And won after the case went to the Supreme Court of New Jersey.) and it is illegal to kick out card counters there now.

From my understanding since then, neither card counters nor casinos really want to take this argument to court. Card counters don't want to take it because since Jersey lost they have some of the worst BlackJack conditions in the states, and casinos don't want to take it because they enjoy barring counters. (If I'm not mistaken)

Poker players who are blacklisted probably won't have the same reservations to take it to court as card counters.
 
Gallarado777

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Over recent weeks there has been a lot of controversy and accusations surrounding a number of well-known poker players involved with cheating. In the meantime, the poker community along with a number of high-profile poker players have been calling for a Black List which would include poker players who have been known and proven to be cheats or have been banned.

CardsChat contributor and poker pro, Chris Wallace, asks if this Black List could actually be put into place? How would it be compiled? Who would be put in charge of it?

Read more on Chris's thoughts here >>> Is a Poker Blacklist Even Possible?

What are your thoughts on the topic?
I think it's time to make such a list in many games there is a black list, it's just called differently everywhere, but it exists because there will always be people who want to cheat the system and go to victory in an easy way, so it's necessary to create such a black list so that players understand that the system is cheating there is a punishment until it is gone people will rejoice and are not afraid of it if this topic has already been created and started asking this question I think they will soon do it and punish those who deceive the poker system I really hope so
 
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Kicking out card counters may not be legal. The one case in which I know of that went to court is when Ken Uston sued in New Jersey (And won after the case went to the Supreme Court of New Jersey.) and it is illegal to kick out card counters there now.

From my understanding since then, neither card counters nor casinos really want to take this argument to court. Card counters don't want to take it because since Jersey lost they have some of the worst BlackJack conditions in the states, and casinos don't want to take it because they enjoy barring counters. (If I'm not mistaken)

Poker players who are blacklisted probably won't have the same reservations to take it to court as card counters.
Which is why I noted that counting cards is not against any law. Casinos simply do not like a punter having the skill set to play with an advantage against the house.

Regarding the casinos in Nevada, I was talking in the context of the WSOP and the right to exclude players by various parties...

In 2016 the Nevada Supreme Court adopted the majority common law rule that casino establishments are to be open to the general public but have the common right-law right to exclude any individual from the premises pursuant to the majority common-law position. That position, of being able 'to eject any person from the premises of the establishment for any reason'' was being challenged unsuccessfully.

In terms of players potentially suing, you might be correct of this being less likely by blackjack players than poker players. After all blackjack players are generally low profile and prefer to keep it that way whereas some poker players are well known and perhaps feel inclined to protect their image. However, recent history would not indicate that poker players who have been banned or had funds confiscated (which would apply to both Ali Imsirovic and Jake Schindler online and live at Monte Carlo and Madrid) are not so inclined. In fact Shindler refused to even say anything after his win at the 50K High Roller likely because he knew he would be asked about the online bans.

I now think a blacklist is unlikely. However, what I said at the outset of these cheating threads is a position could have been taken and people could have followed the EPT/PokerStars. A strong message could have been sent without the most draconian of measures taken. As noted, for one thing the WSOP could have banned players for the WSOP 2022 without naming them (or as also noted Paris and Ballys banned them). I also suggested previously that if the casinos wanted to allow them to play 'privately' in high stakes games rather than tournaments then maybe they should. Then other players could decide whether or not they wanted to play them.

However, I'll maintain there are some serious issues with truly exposing the cheating and how it took place that several parties are leery of detailing. And that plays a role in why I believe there will be an aversion to implementing a blacklist at this point.
 
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Yes Blacklisting can be done easily.The good news is that online poker sites can implement sophisticated algorithms that track behavior in any way and can go behind the scenes if it happens. they can see scammers' IP address collisions and screenshots. Scammers work with one or two assistants, historically this has been both live and online. Online, this is achieved by creating a third-party application such as a phone call, VPN or screen sharing software. Cheating in a live arena requires more skill and preparation. Cheaters work with one or two assistants, Cheating in a live arena requires more skill and preparation.
 
S3mper

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Regarding the casinos in Nevada, I was talking in the context of the WSOP and the right to exclude players by various parties...

In 2016 the Nevada Supreme Court adopted the majority common law rule that casino establishments are to be open to the general public but have the common right-law right to exclude any individual from the premises pursuant to the majority common-law position. That position, of being able 'to eject any person from the premises of the establishment for any reason'' was being challenged unsuccessfully.
I was unaware of this ruling. Make sense. I'm honestly surprised of the way NJ ruled in the Uston case.

If a blacklist is enacted (Which I'm in agreement with you is unlikely) I wouldn't be surprised to see players argue that it's part of their religion to play poker in order to attempt to receive protections from said blacklist. Lol.
 
heguli82

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Cheating and poker goes hand in hand in my mind. Pouring hot tar upon cheater bare skin was quite common punishment in 19th century, lets go with that? :)
 
S3mper

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I haven't looked into it yet but watching Negreanu's vlog looks like a blacklist is potentially coming?
 
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I think that it is possible. If the casinos have a list for blackjack players, then there should be a shared list for poker. The only thing is that it would be limited to live cheaters. I think it would be harder to add online players to that list. We will see :)
 
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Posting any comment in such threads at this point feels like little more than an ironic and redundant footnote but I when read the following I was genuinely taken aback for the sheer 'in everyone's face' of it.

Even though PokerStars acted first to ban perceived cheaters online and at live events, GG Poker promptly made a song and dance about establishing an ‘integrity council’ to handle cheating. However, as we know, the usual suspects showed at the WSOP and were even featured in much of the coverage - something slightly contentious at the time as I contended it was deliberate.

So, I visit Pokernews yesterday and today to find Bryn Kenney featured yet again. What other conclusion is to be made but Pokernews is trying to rehabilitate his image at this point? However it was the context which made me laugh.

Bryn Kenney had made it to a final table. Final table where? That would be playing in the GG Poker Super Millions.

You could not make this stuff up.
 
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