Help needed- got 2 accounts on PS and want to cash out- can i?

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AlexeiVronsky

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I'd say that there's no real value to the vast majority of freerolls, except as entertainment. While there is an absolute increase on average income from a freeroll, in general the average amount of value from that freeroll is far less than you would make by working for an equivalent period of time. So when you consider the opportunity cost you're probably losing money by playing freerolls unless you're concurrently doing something else that makes you money. While it may be technically fraudulent it's essentially meaningless as you're not significantly denying anyone else the opportunity to win money as there's tons of freerolls across numerous sites, far more than anyone could reasonably play, and most of them with better average payout per player than on pokerstars.

The age question is basically a matter of opinion, if you want to say that an arbitrary age of 18 or 21, is requisite to play poker, that's fine you're entitled to your opinion. I personally don't see what the seemingly arbitrary age of 18 has to do with anything, and I don't think 21 makes any sense as the source of that as age of majority is from british parliamentary law as to when people were capable of carrying their own armour into battle. If you're going to make an age of majority based on rationality it should be age 26 when the pre-frontal cortex is generally fully mature.

And argument from legality has little merit for me as I don't believe the governments have the right to dictate our lives nearly as much as they do. I'm capable, as are many others, to determine how I choose to live my life and so long as I don't threaten others from being able to do likewise there should be no problems. Instead the legal system dictates and severely limits personal freedoms for the advantage of power elites and codifies laws on morality that should be determined by individuals. The regulation of poker is an example of this, it's a consensual activity that does no harm to the majority of players. The minority of players who have a gambling problem will run out of money, and they have no one to blame for the problems but themselves. If they're stupid/weak enough to lose all their money they deserve it, and whoever takes the money they lose deserve it for being better than them.

This leads me to gambling addiction. This is generally caused by a flaw in someone's brain chemistry. To say that a younger person is going to become a compulsive gambler simply because they played, for instance, poker when they were younger is simply false. They'll become a compulsive gambler if their brain chemistry is off. It's actually probably better to identify such a problem younger in any case as it can be more easily treated when they're under the supervision of another person who claims responsibility for them. And failing to claim personal responsibility for addiction is dangerous. There's a wide variety of things that people can become addicted to that aren't necessarily bad in and of themselves, it's only a problem when it becomes excessive, you need to maintain discipline and restraint which no one can do for you. If someone has a problem they're going to find a way to meet their desires regardless of legality, therefore the best method is to find ways of mitigating or ceasing the destructive behavior. Simply making laws is no good for this, as it tends to compound the problems instead of dealing with their root causes and solving them.

So basically I don't see why this is such a big deal to people, he played in a freeroll, then made some real money off of it with (presumably) good play at other games. Who he is, and whether he is who he claimed should have little relevance to this. The only real point of contention is that he played in a freeroll he wasn't intended to play in. As there are such a large number of freerolls he could have played in for his nationality, even if on a different site, it's odd that he would decide to do this, but he's not really denying anyone else the ability to beat him so does it really matter what country he's from? (Again though I'm an anti-nationalist, because I think the group mentality that arises from this conception of in-group is dangerous and leads to far too many deaths and atrocities.)
 
bubbasbestbabe

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Sorry, Pokerchris has a valid arguement. This is turning into something like we had up here with Elliot Spitzer. Basically it's a hypocritical arguement.

The main part of the OP thread was how to further defraud PS. He lied about his age and wants to get his winnings. They were obtained illegally. He needs to forfeit his winnings and start over, period.

If I was 16 and bought a winning lottery ticket and got someone else to get the money it would be the same as what he wants to do. It is illegal for me as a minor to buy that ticket in the first place. Subsequent actions still do not entitle me to the money.

The OP needs to strap it on and fess up to Stars. They are the poker police and should decide what the results of his actions should be. If he is banned from there and loses his money, so be it.

He then needs to move on and start over legally at another site.
 
4Aces

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I highly doubt OP will own up to what he has done and forfeit his winnings, I wouldn't.
 
F Paulsson

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Hi guys.

Two points.

1. If I commit a crime, let's say "going into a pub using a fake ID" at the age of 18 in the US, this does not make it hypocritical of me to point out to others that it's a crime. "Hypocrisy" wouldn't come into play until I said that they I'd never do that myself. Thus, regardless of whether or not Zach has played at Stars before he was 18, he isn't being hypocritical when he points out that it's fraud. Even if he has commited fraud himself.

2. I had a really good second point but now I can't remember what it was. I even had three, originally, but then I decided to make it concise and now I can't remember even the second one. Getting older sucks.

Much* love,
FP


* Well, some. To some of you. I've also gotten pickier with age.
 
Egon Towst

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The main part of the OP thread was how to further defraud PS. He lied about his age and wants to get his winnings. They were obtained illegally. He needs to forfeit his winnings and start over, period.

If I was 16 and bought a winning lottery ticket and got someone else to get the money it would be the same as what he wants to do. It is illegal for me as a minor to buy that ticket in the first place. Subsequent actions still do not entitle me to the money.

The OP needs to strap it on and fess up to Stars. They are the poker police and should decide what the results of his actions should be. If he is banned from there and loses his money, so be it.

He then needs to move on and start over legally at another site.

Well put. I concur.


I highly doubt OP will own up to what he has done and forfeit his winnings, I wouldn't.

(my emphasis)
I find that disappointing, 4As. Don`t you see that it is a question of integrity ?

A man who will cheerfully keep something he came by improperly is not a man who inspires trust.
 
aliengenius

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I just want to point out that most 'laws of exclusion due to age' are not really enforced regarding the actual perpetrator, and in many cases, not even written such that it is illegal for a minor to perform the action.

In other words, it's not illegal for a minor to drink or gamble, it's illegal to sell or give a minor alcohol, or to engage in betting with them. A kid isn't going to get arrested for raiding his parents liquor cabinet, but the clerk at the convenience store IS going to get arrested for selling beer to a 16yo. Likewise, a casino might incur heavy fines for dealing blackjack to a minor, and the minor may not be able to keep any winnings, but certainly isn't going to get major punishment beyond that (will vary by jurisdiction, obvioulsy).

In many cases, NO laws are technically enforceable against minors (who, theoretically, can't make decisions themselves). Even cash transactions (like buying candy) are not "technically" legal with a minor under common law-- and the minor has a right to "dis-affirm" the transaction/contract.
 
BillyTheBull

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Wow, what a thread, and what a mess . . . my advice is to try the honest route, email PS support, explain everything, maybe they'll let you keep your account and keep playing; who knows what'll happen to the money, but if I read this correctly it's only $250 or something like that, right? If you lose it it's a small price to pay for a dumb mistake, and if you are indeed serious about continuing to play poker online (and on PS in particular), look at it as a "cost of doing business" kind of thing.
 
robwhufc

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edit: i also think that it's hilarious that 'pokerchris' has apparently taken the time to trawl through zach's post history in a desperate attempt to dig up some dirt, lolz.

Did you really type that? Pot kettle etc etc.
 
4Aces

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What I would do if I was OP (assuming he has turned 18), is to own up to stars after Ive withdrawn the money. I would not put money at risk, that I have won fairly. I don't care if I broke a rule that I totally disagree with in order to win the money in the first place.

Playing in freerolls that you're not allowed to play in, is basically theft. But if you deposit YOUR money onto a poker site and win, that's now your money imo.
I agree that we should not help OP. But I wish him luck with getting his money. Like I said, I played for real money when I was underage and if I could turn back time I wouldn't change a thing. Seriously, like I said earlier, "If you were 16 years old, you loved/had a passion for poker, could win money constantly online, most probably wouldn't get caught, would you play?". < I seriously cant imagine anyone saying no to that question.

What im trying to say is that OP was wrong to do what he did and we probably shouldn't help him. But what he has done really isn't that big of a deal at all. Just my opinion.
 
zachvac

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ok, so I've been called a hypocrite since I played when underage (I've not kept that a secret, if you search old posts I defended one kid playing underage specifically saying I played underage). Here are my thoughts on underage gambling. It's illegal, it's fraud, but you have not stolen anything and I don't believe it's "wrong". It's still cheating, and if the poker site finds out no minor has anything to complain about if their money gets seized, but if the underage player wants to risk the consequences, that's what they have to do. As with any action, it has consequences. Push all-in with 72, risk losing all your chips. Play underage, risk losing all your money.

That said, I was willing to take that risk. And if I were in that position, I'd do it again too. Now I wasn't very good when I was underage, and I lost everything I put on there, so I didn't have the problem the OP is having. When I turned 18, I told Pokerstars what happened, that I had put false info in, etc. and asked them to change my age to my real age, name to my real name, and updated the rest of the info (so I was no longer Bob Jones from Bobvills, Alaksa with a 12345 zip code). Speeding's a crime too, but how many of you go 70 (or 80 or 90) in the 65 MPH zones on the highway? You are willing to face the consequences of getting caught, and make a calculated risk. That's what life is, and I think my decision was +ev.

Back to the accusation that I was being a hypocrite. I guess since my main point was that it is illegal, but my big problem was not with age, but with deliberately cheating to enter freerolls. I guess I just hate how many people cheat in our freerolls, getting multiple accounts, sharing it with other people not in the forum, etc. People who have no right to play in our freerolls fill them up. The reason behind them is for us to recruit new people to play, and people who don't join are taking legitimate members' spots and making them a little more likely to get pissed off at the forum and leave. Similar to Stars freerolls. They were trying to get people from [x] country. I think it's just plain wrong to cheat the system to get something free. I only got into the whole fraud thing because someone tried to tell me that what he was doing was not illegal because he didn't gain anything.

In summary:
My stance on underage gambling is that gambling should be legal for anyone who knows the rules and puts money on the table/site. That's not the case, and if you do get caught I have no problem with the punishment (confiscation of funds), but I still don't regret what I did in illegally playing (yes I admitted this) and I have no problem with other people playing underage. The only reason the poker sites have the rule is they're afraid if they don't they will be more likely to be banned. Thus they don't really enforce it, unless of course someone points it out, and then enforcing the rules actually gains them money sometimes. The OP engaged in dirty tactics to take something free that was not his. He should never do this again. As it is if I were him, I would try to find a friend on Stars and transfer the money to them and get the cash. Barring that I would attempt to cash out. After the money's gone, I would then talk to Stars about the fact that you have 2 accounts (don't mention the freeroll crap, they'll be able to find that out, and if they don't there's no reason to bring it up), and see if you can get that sorted out. But in the future, please don't try to cheat the system to steal something that is not meant for you, it's just plain wrong.
 
4Aces

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Good post Zach. I agree.
 
D

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just an idea, why don't u just set up a real account with all your real details and go on a heads up cash game and chip dump the lot of it, then cash out using your real details. That would probably work well

and from personal experience, poker sites are commercial organisations that will screw u outta money at any possible oppotunity so don't even try to cash out from an account with false details, do it all as legit as possible when u cash out.
 
Irexes

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First. What you advocating is more likely to get you banned from the site.

Second this thread is old and done and doesn't need bumping so I'm locking it, anyone want to discuss issues around this subject start another thread.
 
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