Why I think online poker is rigged

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BitznBites

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This is long but I just gotta get it off my chest.

First let me say right up front, that I DO NOT think online poker is rigged to favor any one player. I think that poker sites are rigged to juice the pot, thus making for more rake and more profit.

There are several reasons why I think online poker is rigged. They are both from observation and from real world logic and experience.

Any company or corporation is in the business of making money, as much money as possible, in any way that it can be made. If Company A can make $50 million a month that’s great, but if it can $50M and 50 cents that’s better. If it can make that extra .50 cents in some unethical or illegal way without getting caught then it’s all good. The larger the company or corporation, or the more money involved, the more likely it is that this sort of thing will happen. There will be some underling out to impress his boss (who is out to impress his boss) that will come up with a scheme to boost the company profits. The chairman of the board or any celebrity spokesmen may have no idea, and may not care to check, if anything unsavory is going on. Can we spell “plausible deniability” boys and girls? It may also be that the chairman may not be able to detect that anything is wrong, as in the case of companies whose business is entirely computer generated. It would be very easy for an enterprising underling to twiddle the code for the desired results and unless there was an INDEPENDENT auditor that part of the code would never be seen. There could easily be multiple programs, one that you would show to outside verification firms that would put their stamp of approval on it, and another that would actually run on the site. There would have to be independent and unannounced spot checks to prevent or at least deter this sort of thing. I do not see that this sort of independent auditing happens. That would probably need to be a governmental or possibly a trade group process.

How might some one be able to detect that things are not quite right? By observation of course. I have heard and read in several places statements by the companies themselves, their celebrity spokesmen, and various pundits about “why would poker sites do such a thing and risk killing the golden goose”, or “you play many more hands online that there are bound to be more suck outs”. To that I would say just observe. If you play multiple tables watch to see how often a hand on table A would win on table B or C. How often is there some kind of coordination between tables? How often do you get the same cards at the same time on 2 or more tables? Just look for patterns. If you see patterns IT’S NOT RANDOM!! If it’s not random there is a reason for it.

I have played a lot in casinos and home games. It is strange to me how often in online games that what ever cards I am dealt, I will pair the flop or get 4 to a flush or straight. I do not see this in live games. There is a tendency for low to mid limit players to call the blinds with almost any 2 cards. Low and mid limit players make up the bulk of players online. Could a poker site exploit this tendency by making sure the flop hits the most players in some way thus encouraging more action? I know…more hands per hour and all that but I have watched and kept track of how often this happens live as opposed to online. The percentages online are higher than live. That means that online is NOT random. If it’s not random there is a reason. I do not think this happens every hand but 5, 10, 15 percent......Hummmmm.....10 percent of $50M is some serious cash.

Again I state that I do not think that poker sites favor any one player. Also if you play good solid poker you can win online but you better have the nuts by the river ‘cause some donkey will suck out and beat you with a 2 outer.

Until and unless there is some sort of independent ongoing oversight of online poker sites I will not trust them. I will still play there ‘cause I love to play poker so much but I will not put very much if any real money in them. Hopefully we can get the government to see the light on poker and we can get some sort of regulation but I’m not going to hold my breath.

And that’s all I have to say about that.
 
Tammy

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You could have just searched "online poker is rigged", and come up with about a dozen threads that say basically the same thing. :)
 
Irexes

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If what you were saying is true then the thousands of data miners and analysers out there would be able to prove it. Not speculate but statistically demonstrate it.

(as a really small example we had a thread a while back where a number of us with decent sized pokertrakcer databases post occurance of pocket pairs, even though the sample were only in the tens of thousands it was all pretty close to the expected, the same can be done with flops)

And they are checked by auditors and many of the companies are listed on stock exchanges.

But most importantly...

Random means patterns will occur and unlikely things will happen. It doesn't mean equal distribution of events over anything other than the very long run. The human brain looks for patterns in order to make sense of the universe even when they don't exist. Hence astrology for example.

Lots of threads on all of this already, type "rigged" in the search box for more.
 
Tygran

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You aren't going to get any sympathy on this board and this post is going to get nothing but replies along the lines of "Here we go again!".

That's all well and good but your post and every other one like it all say the same thing "I THINK IT'S RIGGED! IT HAS TO BE RIGGED! LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY, NO WAY THAT CAN BE RANDOM!". Every single rigged post boils down to what I just said.

Don't know why I'm replying to this but I'm bored.

Statistically, these sites are kept very close track of by alot of people. If they were rigged, there would be obvious statistically anomalies. There aren't. There just simply aren't. If there were they would lose business and go out of business, and the sites know this. Random means you can get anything at any time. Random means what you just got last hand, or the last hour, makes absolutely no difference at all to what you get next hand (or what your oppenents will get..or for that matter HOW YOUR OPPONENTS WILL PLAY WHAT THEY GET). Anything is possible with random.

People in general have such a terrile understanding of probability and statistics though..that's one reason all these threads pop up. Come in here with a good half-million hand database and tell me it's rigged or just go home cause your opinion is only as valuable as the facts you have to back it up. In your case, and in 99.9% of "rigged" posts, you have effectively ZERO facts to back you up, meaning your opinion is worth just as much.
 
arkadiy

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Well, why is it when I have AA does no one else have an "all-in" hand?

I had AA x 3 times today, every single time it was either folded down to me (big blind) or folded to any raise.

Theory dead?
 
blankoblanco

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To that I would say just observe. If you play multiple tables watch to see how often a hand on table A would win on table B or C. How often is there some kind of coordination between tables? How often do you get the same cards at the same time on 2 or more tables? Just look for patterns. If you see patterns IT’S NOT RANDOM!! If it’s not random there is a reason for it.

stopped reading at this ridiculous part. selective memory, anyone? i mean are you honestly going to remember the times you got dealt K8s on one table and 33 on another table and missed both flops that were of completely different textures. like you're really going to think "oh wow, those cards and flops were completely different!"

the problem is you're just selecting what you're 'looking for' as you see it. if the boards are similar on two tables, you say "oh a pattern!" if your starting hands are similar on two tables, you say "oh a pattern!" if the flop on table B would have hit the hand you had on table A you say "oh a pattern!" i mean, jesus christ, there's only 52 cards in a deck. there's 13 cards of each rank. 13. it'd be more concerning if you weren't able to see or imagine many, many of these instances while multitabling. it's bound to happen several times. and when is the last time you multi-tabled live to give yourself a basis of comparison for this? oh, right...
 
WVHillbilly

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Last weekend I was dealt JJ 3 hands in a row. Explain that!

BTW, it was at my buddies house, so he's obviously just trying to make his home game more exciting and generate more action. Live poker is sooooo rigged!
 
reglardave

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If what you were saying is true then the thousands of data miners and analysers out there would be able to prove it. Not speculate but statistically demonstrate it.

(as a really small example we had a thread a while back where a number of us with decent sized pokertrakcer databases post occurance of pocket pairs, even though the sample were only in the tens of thousands it was all pretty close to the expected, the same can be done with flops)

And they are checked by auditors and many of the companies are listed on stock exchanges.

But most importantly...

Random means patterns will occur and unlikely things will happen. It doesn't mean equal distribution of events over anything other than the very long run. The human brain looks for patterns in order to make sense of the universe even when they don't exist. Hence astrology for example.

Lots of threads on all of this already, type "rigged" in the search box for more.

Threads of this type are, in fact, a dime a dozen on this forum. For that matter, any forum.
"I think online poker is rigged because" followed by some variation of a bad beat story, thereby "proving" that something's rotten in canada, or Costa Rica, or yatada. Nevermind all the statistics proving otherwise, tyou "know" better because.........

TRIPE AND POPPYCOCK.

You got 2 of our esteemed and learned moderators pointing you to threads with a common theme, and here's one other thing many of them have in common:

First time this week, congratulations, you're about to be
KABONGED
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DaFrench1

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If what you were saying is true then the thousands of data miners and analysers out there would be able to prove it. Not speculate but statistically demonstrate it.

(as a really small example we had a thread a while back where a number of us with decent sized pokertrakcer databases post occurance of pocket pairs, even though the sample were only in the tens of thousands it was all pretty close to the expected, the same can be done with flops)


I've heard this argument over and over, and it seems to be the most popular defence of the 'not rigged' camp. But the thing is this, the cards dealt can be randomly spread, you only have to rig the board cards to marry cards to the players that have called the hand. Then if the board cards are being matched to random cards obviously the flops will appear to be random as well. Its beautiful really from a scam point of view.

Also, another thing is that unfortunately Texas Holdem is probably one of the easiest games to rig. I was messing about with a pen and paper the other day doing set-up hands, you know like a set against a flush against a two pair and a straight and a boat, that sort of thing. Basically you start by creating a draw heavy board and then deal out the corresponding cards so that all the players get a piece of the action. Its soooooo easy its ridiculous. I even set up a hand where I gave AA to UTG and then made it so that ALL the other positions could crack it with junk cards. The hand would probably play out with a big raise UTG and everyone folding, but I decided to reward anyones bravery (or stupidity) if they made the call or if the AA guy tried to limp in, Muhahahahaha.

Another thing is that the set-up hands don't even have to be exact, there are only key cards that need to be matched and the rest can be randomized. So for example if I'm gonna give a player a nut flush I just need to make sure the A is there, the partner card can be from 2-K and it doesn't really matter. The guy I'm giving the lower flush just needs random suited cards from 2-10 say. So by adding semi-randomness from one set-up hand I created I can morph it into 100's of variations of the same play-out. Oh, and then because I'm using a RNG for the semi-random components I can lawfully claim I use this for my gaming site :D.

Personally, I've accepted that its rigged for action and I play it accordingly. If you know when to fold and use BR managent then you can still make money.
 
dj12inches

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I dont understand who benefits.

I mean, if you are at a SNG table and everybody pays the same - the site does not benefit. On bodog - they take their .20 cents or whatever - but the players keep the rest for winning.

Am I wrong here?

JB
 
WVHillbilly

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I dont understand who benefits.

I mean, if you are at a SNG table and everybody pays the same - the site does not benefit. On Bodog - they take their .20 cents or whatever - but the players keep the rest for winning.

Am I wrong here?

JB

Your logic has no place in this thread.
 
dj12inches

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This is long but I just gotta get it off my chest.

First let me say right up front, that I DO NOT think online poker is rigged to favor any one player. I think that poker sites are rigged to juice the pot, thus making for more rake and more profit.

My logic has no place in this thread? Then what the hell is he talking about? What rake? The fee a site takes to enter a tournament? In cash games?

The point of it all is that cheating is supposed to benefit somebody. If a site is rigged - who does it benefit - and exactly how does that cash get into their hands because of juiced pots? Pure statistical analysis and probability aside - somebody is rigging something in order to accomplish something. What is that?

JB
 
Vollycat

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JB--
Your logic has no place in this thread because everyone is talking about cash/ring games where each and every hand the house will scrape up to $3. You are right about sng's. But that has no point here, because they are obviously talking about ring and not tournies.

The house has an obvious desire to see action on each hand because they will make $3 X 60 hands per hour or $180 per hour on each table. There's the math.

The problem that the original poster has is that he is bringing up a topic that is so hashed over in SO many forums, SOOO many times that people are sick of listening to the whining.

I guess my take on it is, if you think it's rigged and you continue to play, why are you still playing? Why would you ever play in a fixed game?!? That's even more moronic then griping about it in the first place when you really havn't done the research to prove jack crap.
 
wsorbust

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There must something CC can implement for anyone who attempts to use "Rigged", disallowing the post to go through.
Then, if they still want to post about it, they'll have to be calm and sly enough to do a work-around.
 
Stick66

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There must something CC can implement for anyone who attempts to use "Rigged", disallowing the post to go through.
Then, if they still want to post about it, they'll have to be calm and sly enough to do a work-around.
LOL! Then they'd just find away around it like cussing in table chat.

R.igged
R1gg3d
Ri99ed
Rigd

LOL!
 
K_Kahne_Fan

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I dont understand who benefits.

I mean, if you are at a SNG table and everybody pays the same - the site does not benefit. On Bodog - they take their .20 cents or whatever - but the players keep the rest for winning.

Am I wrong here?

JB

If you wanted to go with this, I guess you could say, bigger pots = quicker turnover of tables = people rebuying into tournies quicker, especially HU. That's the only possible way it could effect SNG's or MTT's.

There, helped the theorists with another though :D

As for cheaters, weather it be bots, players, sites... whoever use Ferguson's example and start with freerolls. He has hard proof (on one site at least) that weather it's rigged or not, you can win. Let other people put the money in that you collect. If you never put money in you won't have anything to lose. Between all the theorists out there and the donks I end up playing/losing against (including myself), I've decided to (try) not to deposit another dime in a site. If I can't play well enough to outlast a freeroll, then I don't need to put my own $$ in anyway.
 
K_Kahne_Fan

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LOL! Then they'd just find away around it like cussing in table chat.

R.igged
R1gg3d
Ri99ed
Rigd

LOL!


Use the censor feature to make...

rigged --> (I'm on tilt)
 
dj12inches

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Thank you.

I understand the distinction.

I can also understand the frustration with people that have heard this over and over again. Reading the entire body of posts in a large forum such as this one is daunting, at best. Also - who wants to participate in old conversations that have taken place in the past. There are new members here, such as myself that only search through the new threads, because they are current and relevant. Discussion is better when it is fresh, IMO - so I have found this thread to be 'new' even though the topic is old.

That being said - I dont want to bore anybody else with my opinions, but the games seem the same as the live games I play at in LV and San Diego Indian casinos.

/thread
 
wsorbust

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LOL! Then they'd just find away around it like cussing in table chat.
Na. It would be something like. You can't use an "R" with two "G"'s in the same word or a g two letters away from an R, along with not allowing numbers in. There are clever programming ways to stop people from using what the common person would do, such as in your examples. Stars took minimal steps in attempting to stop "bad" words from showing up, as they should, because it doesn't really matter. My solution was more for fun anyway.
 
WVHillbilly

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DJ, I meant no offense. I was merely saying that LOGIC has no place in an ILLOGICAL topic. In other words, you're making too much sense.:)
 
dj12inches

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Sorry - I was not offended - just confused! Thank you.

JB
 
Cheetah

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This phenomenon of "selective memory" to support rigged "theories" is similar to "bad-luck theories" or superstitions in general.

Interestigly, superstitions are not unique to humans but also observed in animals. Apparently the brain has a tendency to correlate events that have no causal relationship. It seems that this can happen spontaneously by "observing" a pattern that is a coincidence, and then selectively remembering all the times this random pattern is confirmed (and forgetting the times it is not).

Here is an exerpt about the original research into superstitions in animals:

"One of Skinner's experiments examined the formation of superstition in one of his favorite experimental animals, the pigeon. Skinner placed a series of hungry pigeons in a cage attached to an automatic mechanism that delivered food to the pigeon "at regular intervals with no reference whatsoever to the bird's behavior." He discovered that the pigeons associated the delivery of the food with whatever chance actions they had been performing as it was delivered, and that they subsequently continued to perform these same actions.

Skinner suggested that the pigeons believed that they were influencing the automatic mechanism with their "rituals" and that this experiment shed light on human behavior:"
 
DaFrench1

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if you think it's rigged and you continue to play, why are you still playing? Why would you ever play in a fixed game?!? That's even more moronic then griping about it in the first place when you really havn't done the research to prove jack crap.



Well, no-one said it wasn't fun! :D And if its still profitable then why not?
 
K_Kahne_Fan

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2nd hand after sitting down. Figured you might like that 3 players had suited pockets with a flush flop...
 

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