Are We Cheating in Online Poker?

[KristaK]

hi hi !!!! :ciao:
i watch podcast this morning that raise troubling issue

when i new, study poker… i burn up my printer, make colour gto charts from pokercoaching.com
tournament pre-flop charts: raise first in by each position by blind level, facing raise by position by blind level, 3 bet charts, push fold charts… zillion charts
krista diligently cover each in plastic, tries organize for find easy
now these many charts rest in large pile over there on shelf… in 10 seconds to decide i always unable find correct chart, what do with my A-J lol

appears use of such charts cheating? yikes

after the doug polk podcast i just now review pokerstars TOS…
i place the relevant section below, related to External Player Assistance Tools… appears yes charts maybe are illegal - doug polk & oliver busquet correct?

when i in malta few years ago went observe some ept live, i opportunity have drinks with couple pokerstars programmers who work security. i surprised they look on my computer see what software is running. no believe? try - open pokerstars then open flopzilla.
yes impossible they see if krista have pile of plasticized charts next to her mouse

my question…. you use such charts? how you feel that use charts is cheating?

thank you
krista

“use of any tool that informs a player exactly what action to take in real-time is clearly cheating”

EXTERNAL PLAYER ASSISTANCE TOOLS. TSG prohibit external player assistance tools ("EPA Tools") that are designed to provide an "unfair advantage" to players. TSG defines "EPA Tools" as computer software (other than the Software), and non-software-based systems (e.g. web sites, subscription services and physical materials). TSG takes a broad view of what constitutes an "unfair advantage" in the context of any use of EPA Tools and specific guidance can be found in our Third Party Tools and Services FAQ. For the avoidance of doubt, what is prohibited encompasses but is not limited to accessing or compiling information on other players beyond that which the User has personally observed through the User's own game play or receiving advice, direction or assistance on how to play, in real time, that goes beyond a basic level.

relevant links:
https://www.pokerstars.com/tos/
https://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/prohibited/
doug polk podcast:

 

[Risto234]

Guess only "cheating" which i'm doing is playing in site X which still do this day for whatever reasons dont have license to operate here ...

And then again pretty much everyone in my country has make adventage of that rooms ^ generosity lol ...

 

[thunder_road]

while using charts maybe against the rules in online poker it is not enforceable unless the

violator of the rule self admits to breaking the rule. personally i dont take unenforceable

rules like one player to a hand seriously. I do not think u are cheating. I take it about as

serious as i take jaywalking

in my housing community residents are required to pickup their dogs poop but there is no way

to enforce so many dont comply. a similar situation.

following rules like this in online poker when many dont only serves to put you at a disadvantage. sometimes its ok to break bad rules

 

[RDHartsoe]

I don't use any charts or anything but I don't see how using a chart can influence what cards come out on the board. A starting hand chart does not bother me at all. There is more to poker than just that.

 

[Aguimonteiro]

I think it's far from being a cheat, first because it's a study tool, second because it doesn't do anything on its own, if you don't adjust your range according to who's playing at the table it won't help you much!
GL

 

[Poker Orifice]

while using charts maybe against the rules in online poker it is not enforceable unless the

violator of the rule self admits to breaking the rule. personally i dont take unenforceable

rules like one player to a hand seriously. I do not think u are cheating. I take it about as

serious as i take jaywalking

in my housing community residents are required to pickup their dogs poop but there is no way

to enforce so many dont comply. a similar situation.

following rules like this in online poker when many dont only serves to put you at a disadvantage. sometimes its ok to break bad rules

People taking responsibility for their dog's sh1t is a tad different than people cheating by using RTA don't you think?? If I see someone NOT picking up their dog's sh1t I am definitely going to confront them over it (Who do they EXPECT to pick it up for them... their Mommy? Me? Fk that!).

As far as considering this as a 'bad rule'.. which makes it ok to break it???
- If you don't like the rules, play elsewhere
- using RTA totally SUCKS and I just hope the security on sites keeps working at overcoming this


Krista, as far as Charts go.... I don't think they should be used ever in real time.

 

[thunder_road]

People taking responsibility for their dog's sh1t is a tad different than people cheating by using RTA don't you think?? If I see someone NOT picking up their dog's sh1t I am definitely going to confront them over it (Who do they EXPECT to pick it up for them... their Mommy? Me? Fk that!).

As far as considering this as a 'bad rule'.. which makes it ok to break it???
- If you don't like the rules, play elsewhere
- using RTA totally SUCKS and I just hope the security on sites keeps working at overcoming this


Krista, as far as Charts go.... I don't think they should be used ever in real time.

after you confront them and they just walk away then what call the cops over dog poop

what pecentage of the players using rta would you estimate the sites catch

 

[Spikey]

Always remember to buy gaffa tape if playing poker, cause if your wife or husband screams allin while your playing, your actually cheating ROFL

For charts, yes i do think it will be considered cheating if looking at anything that can influence your next move, if people do it, yes i am pretty sure some do. Its not cheating if you memorize them though, so start training the brain hahaha

 

[LetterRip]

Different sites have different TOS,

some explicitly allow preflop chart such as ACR

4.1 Acceptable tools:

4.1.0 Definition: Any third-party tool, piece of software, or source material, not developed by WPN, that allows players to improve their playing performance is considered acceptable provided it doesn’t pose any threat to the integrity of our games. These include:

...

4.1.2 Reference Material such as 2-dimensional, push-fold, preflop simple table-based starting hand charts that may orient players on what hands to play or not, in unopened pots.

https://www.americascardroom.eu/poker-customer-support/game-integrity/

 

[darthjewel]

Yes !

[ the PS security guys turn the heads over the table
and start looking around with rising attention ]

This is cheating !

[ the PS security turn their heads back with content ]

But
[ lowering the voice ]
I think the TOS are more about various kind of software that calculates the odds 'on fly'
or displays players statistics of some sort and the charts are more like your personal notes created prior to the game.

I do not use charting though, I have the hands grouped into the ranges
like low pairs, low connectors, suited, with a gap, and try to memorize what to do with them.

Anyway your meeting with PS was quite cheerful,
others may describe their experience with Stars security like below

 

[fundiver199]

Apparently its allowed to use "simple charts" like a basic raise first in chart while playing on PokerStars, but not "complicated or extensive" printed / chart material like for instance charts telling you which hands to raise first in with 20BB, 25BB, 30BB and so on and so forth.

As others have said already, such a rule is in reality uninforceable, and personally I dont care, which charts my opponents are looking at while playing. For sure charts can help someone to get closer to the GTO ranges, but in micro and low stakes games adjusting well to specific opponents and situations is generally more important than playing perfect GTO.

With that being said I do think, there is a bit of an issue with these uninforceable and sometimes also not particular logical rules. For instance while playing on PokerStars it is allowed to use Flopzilla, PokerSnowie and even PIO Solver, but not the free program Equilab, which is a simple range equity calculator. How PokerStars arrived at this exact list defies any kind of logic, that I can see.

Yet if an amateur player like me accidentally has Equilab open, when he start the PokerStars client, a message pops up, and an email is send warning him of "sterner actions", if it happens again. I got this email 4 times now, twice for having Equilab open and twice for having ICMizer open, when I started the client. So I guess, I am lucky, PokerStars have not stolen my money yet. Because apparently I am a habitual cheater, even though I have not played a single hand, while any of those "forbidden" programs were open.

At the same time I cant escape the feeling, that should I ever make it to the final table of a big tournament like Sunday Millions, then at least half my opponents will either have software like ICMizer running on a second computer, or they will have their coach on the phone giving them real time advice. So if I dont do the same, most likely I am a bit naive and the one being cheated.

 

[digdug0037]

Imma take a stab and say most people cheat with tools such as preflop charts, equalabs or whatever, its easy enough for a person to have 2 sources of internet to accomplish their unethical goals. sad but true. Then they turn around and clain to be pros, ex....poker guru ACR

 

[AKQ]

to an advanced player ,charts are an advantage
to also have a HUD is a massive advantage.

But when you play against me
Charts are a disadvantage for you, my range CAN BE ANYTHING

Hud statistics are also a disadvantage to you,
for I have a very loose gear
a very tight gear
a loose passive
a tight passive
a very aggressive tight gear
and a very aggressive loose gear

The HUD STATS will only give an average of my actions
So playing loose aggro and then switching to a tight aggressive gear
gives the absolute wrong information to be capitalizing on by your opponents.

Sup KristyK!!!

 

[Emily Trott]

For me it would depend upon what is in the rules. If the rules say no and you do it then you are cheating whether anyone will know or not. I mainly play at America's Card Room, and this is from the list of "Acceptable tools". It seems to answer your question, at least in regards to ACR, and the answer is that you aren't cheating to use those charts:

"4.1.2 Reference Material such as 2-dimensional, push-fold, preflop simple table-based starting hand charts that may orient players on what hands to play or not, in unopened pots."

https://www.americascardroom.eu/poker-customer-support/game-integrity/

 

[capujoss]

I find that people that use HuDs are cheating. But that's just my opinion.

 

[DS3]

Apparently its allowed to use "simple charts" like a basic raise first in chart while playing on PokerStars, but not "complicated or extensive" printed / chart material like for instance charts telling you which hands to raise first in with 20BB, 25BB, 30BB and so on and so forth.

As others have said already, such a rule is in reality uninforceable, and personally I dont care, which charts my opponents are looking at while playing. For sure charts can help someone to get closer to the GTO ranges, but in micro and low stakes games adjusting well to specific opponents and situations is generally more important than playing perfect GTO.

With that being said I do think, there is a bit of an issue with these uninforceable and sometimes also not particular logical rules. For instance while playing on PokerStars it is allowed to use Flopzilla, PokerSnowie and even PIO Solver, but not the free program Equilab, which is a simple range equity calculator. How PokerStars arrived at this exact list defies any kind of logic, that I can see.

Yet if an amateur player like me accidentally has Equilab open, when he start the PokerStars client, a message pops up, and an email is send warning him of "sterner actions", if it happens again. I got this email 4 times now, twice for having Equilab open and twice for having ICMizer open, when I started the client. So I guess, I am lucky, PokerStars have not stolen my money yet. Because apparently I am a habitual cheater, even though I have not played a single hand, while any of those "forbidden" programs were open.

At the same time I cant escape the feeling, that should I ever make it to the final table of a big tournament like Sunday Millions, then at least half my opponents will either have software like ICMizer running on a second computer, or they will have their coach on the phone giving them real time advice. So if I dont do the same, most likely I am a bit naive and the one being cheated.

I got the same warning after I had simply downloaded Equilab but had yet to open it and analyze a single hand (the download was just before a session). I was furious but knew better to chill. I sent an email (polite) to PokerStars saying that it was unsettling that PS could detect the download when the App had yet to be opened.

Never got a reply.

Obviously the thrust of this issue is regarding TOS about software. But, there is nothing any site can do about any player compiling endless breakdowns of hands and how to play them on cheat sheets, as such.

 

[Poker Orifice]

after you confront them and they just walk away then what call the cops over dog poop

Why are you assuming they'd just walk away?

I know they're not going to walk away... so no need to call anyone else.

When you suggest 'what call the cops over dog poop'
I seriously take someone allowing their dog to sh1t on my property to be a HUGE violation! Something a totally irresponsible/immature person would consider even doing.

FWIW, nobody in my entire neighborhood leaves their dog's sh1t on the ground and we actually live in a bit of a remote neighborhood (ie. large lots sizes with many being 2 to 3 acres or larger), some owning horses, chickens, cattle, etc. Even though we're not really a farming community at all. And yet there is zero sh1t on the ground. People in my neighborhood respect one another... just as I'd hope the players on the sites/games I play in would be (albeit doubtful but not all too unlikely as I don't often play above Low stakes while online). I guess if one has expectations of having to walk thru other's sh1t, they'll end up doing just that.

How many offenders do the sites catch who are using RTA? I honestly have ZERO clue. Firstly I have no idea how many are using it.
I have no idea how many are being caught.

BUT I do know that some are being caught and they're not tolerating it at all.

It is not an insignificant violation and if 'one' thinks it is just because some (Or 'many') are using it and not being caught doesn't make it any less of a violation.

Something like RTA could easily have the ability to ruin online poker. Online poker NEEDS recreational, depositing players. Recreational players won't keep depositing if they think they're being cheated by other players who are breaking the rules.

 

[thunder_road]

How many offenders do the sites catch who are using RTA? I honestly have ZERO clue. Firstly I have no idea how many are using it.
I have no idea how many are being caught


your posts in this thread are an emotional reaction to cheating. witch i actually agree with.
I think most poker players hate the cheating that goes on.

my point was more about the credibility legitimacy and practicality of rules that are either impossible or very difficult to enforce.

lets take a simple example. the one player to a hand rule in online poker. how would u enforce this rule. please be as specific as possible

 

[Pokerpoet2]

If using chart's help's you to play better on-line Poker, then all I can say is good luck to you, Personally I would not use anything I couldn't take into a Casino, Poker is supposed to be an enjoyable game, played among friend's and acquaintances you want to spend time with, and if I went along to a Casino armed with charts, I am sure I would be shown the door.
Poker should be 2nd nature when it comes to playing certain hands, and even the best charts in the World may give you the percentages of any two cards giving you the win. but as I have often seen, even the worst two cards you can start with (7/2) can and do, sometimes win.
Poker is a fun game that I enjoy playing, but when I am not involved in a pot I will watch the other players, and study their play but at the same time I am relaxed and will chat to other players, chart's and percentages are the furthest from my mind, some people have rituals or lucky charms they rely on to win, even some of the top players like Greg Rainer and his joke glasses, or the guy playing with the rubber sharks.
Is it cheating? Possibly, but at the end of the game, is it you that won, or the person who designed the chart's?-- Or was it the Rubber Shark?

When the fun Stops, STOP!

 

[Artbart805]

In a casino... your are always playing people and paying a fee to the house..

someone using charts would be a big tell, i think.....

 

[thunder_road]

In a casino... your are always playing people and paying a fee to the house..

someone using charts would be a big tell, i think.....

wow the depth of your intellectual sophistication is BIGLY

 

[thedarkman]

hi hi !!!! :ciao:
i watch podcast this morning that raise troubling issue

If you rely on charts or any of the garbage spouted by some of these on-line coaches, you'll be in big trouble. You'll realise this next time your pocket aces are cracked by some idiot who calls a pot sized raise pre-flop with 4-2 suited then sucks out with a wheel on an A-J-5 flop.

No limit hold 'em or no limit anything means you can be busted out in one hand at any time.

 

[Poker Orifice]

hi hi !!!! :ciao:
i watch podcast this morning that raise troubling issue

If you rely on charts or any of the garbage spouted by some of these on-line coaches, you'll be in big trouble. You'll realise this next time your pocket aces are cracked by some idiot who calls a pot sized raise pre-flop with 4-2 suited then sucks out with a wheel on an A-J-5 flop.

No limit hold 'em or no limit anything means you can be busted out in one hand at any time.

Can you please explain what does this have to do with a player playing their hand optimally?
And how it has anything to do with 'these on-line coaches'?

... I'm just trying to make some sense out of what you're saying and how it relates to your first sentence and how it relates to the thread

 

[Alex70793]

No, of course, I think that the use of any poker information on paper is absolutely normal and correct, they say that the use of charts and graphs on sheets of paper is cheating, but then it turns out that reading poker books is also cheating, let's ban it, it's funny isn't it )).
But the use of auxiliary poker software on a computer is a real cheating, I am absolutely convinced of this.

 

[kristersb123]

I don't know for sure if it counts as a scam but site should be more accountable for cheating because its their job to make software safe, other players can't really change that. After Mike Postle cheating haven't heard about really big cheating in the poker world, if u have hand history that doesn't change a lot anyways if player can't be easily exploited.