Are Online Poker games totally random?

D

DS3

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Sep 9, 2019
Total posts
7,495
Awards
1
GB
Chips
209
These poker clients are running a business and in the best interest of any money making establishment, is not to screw over their members. If someone doesn't trust the site, then it would be foolish to support them.

Yes, that would appear to be logical if not factoring in actual human behavior.

Boeing, Deutsche Bank, Purdue Pharma, Volkswagen etc. etc. etc. - how many industry titans have little to no regard for sullying their own reputations? I believe the game played is if profits outweigh potential fines, all is good.

Such as JP Morgan this very week – 920 million in penalties for dodgy behavior regarding precious metal futures.

However, we are to believe the gambling industry is a bastion of business integrity?

Each to his own, I’ll retain a healthy dose of skepticism. And for the umpteenth time, I have yet to lose a single dime online. I learned poker with play money, started playing free rolls, joined the CC Free Roll Club less than a year ago where I have built modest stacks on four sites.

It is my suspicion algorithms are weighted. Its frustrating but I navigate my way around. I presume as stakes increase the hands are free of weighting for obvious reasons. Most people committing a fraud do not intentionally leave a trail of breadcrumbs. And as I have stated before, if my suspicions are misplaced, so what? It simply means I play in cautious manner.

The reason I chip into such threads is because I think underlining caution regarding gambling is always a positive – especially when it is accepted that just a small minority of poker players are thought to be profitable.
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
13,457
Awards
1
Chips
297
The reason I chip into such threads is because I think underlining caution regarding gambling is always a positive – especially when it is accepted that just a small minority of poker players are thought to be profitable.

Its true, that only a minority are long term vinners because of the rake. However speculations about the RNG can prevent people from becoming one of those winning players. If for instance someone truly believe, that the RNG is rigged to favour the big stack in tournaments, then a logical adjustment is to not call, if a bigger stack has moved all in. Which is obviously not an optimal strategy, if the card generation is random. Or people might start to call with garbage "because the worst hand always win".

If you are serious about online poker, you have to put these ideas out of your head and trust the sites, where you choose to play, so that you can focus 100% on your own decision making. And if for whatever reason you dont trust a site, then withdraw all your funds and dont play there any more.
 
Polytarp

Polytarp

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 15, 2018
Total posts
1,372
Awards
2
CA
Chips
42
.. I will retain a healthy skepticism as long as I play online.


Well stated DS3.

Regarding the OP's question, what kind of randomness do you mean? As RNG's go do you know what a Mersenne Twister is..and don't cheat by looking it up online right away. Provide facts/evidence of why you think that way and if your question can be answered mathematically then go to the best sources;by this I mean ask KNOWLEDGEABLE poker site support staff, read the fine print in your terms of agreement etc.... Detecting bots, collusion, AI addressing your playing profile.. etc.. is all a matter understanding your environment. DS3 understands.
 
Last edited:
danoscar

danoscar

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 5, 2015
Total posts
1,508
Chips
0
Are Online Games Totally Random

Its true, that only a minority are long term vinners because of the rake. However speculations about the RNG can prevent people from becoming one of those winning players. If for instance someone truly believe, that the RNG is rigged to favour the big stack in tournaments, then a logical adjustment is to not call, if a bigger stack has moved all in. Which is obviously not an optimal strategy, if the card generation is random. Or people might start to call with garbage "because the worst hand always win".

If you are serious about online poker, you have to put these ideas out of your head and trust the sites, where you choose to play, so that you can focus 100% on your own decision making. And if for whatever reason you dont trust a site, then withdraw all your funds and dont play there any more.
Fundiver, I could not have told this any better. What you are saying is EXACTLY the way it should be.
Dan'O
 
partz

partz

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
May 8, 2016
Total posts
857
Awards
2
Chips
0
There's an algorithm that people call it random. If we study a bit the process we gonna find out more. Indeed online poker is programmed to cut the game like faster the better so yes the one with big stack usually have a slight favour on his side. I studied this phenomena for years and is always true. They have the same algorithm, but is very hard to prove that cause few got access to the source code which was written back in 90s and never been changed since then.
 
MrPokerVerse

MrPokerVerse

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 18, 2009
Total posts
2,826
Awards
2
Chips
63
Yes, that would appear to be logical if not factoring in actual human behavior.

Boeing, Deutsche Bank, Purdue Pharma, Volkswagen etc. etc. etc. - how many industry titans have little to no regard for sullying their own reputations? I believe the game played is if profits outweigh potential fines, all is good.

Such as JP Morgan this very week – 920 million in penalties for dodgy behavior regarding precious metal futures.

However, we are to believe the gambling industry is a bastion of business integrity?

Each to his own, I’ll retain a healthy dose of skepticism. And for the umpteenth time, I have yet to lose a single dime online. I learned poker with play money, started playing free rolls, joined the CC Free Roll Club less than a year ago where I have built modest stacks on four sites.

It is my suspicion algorithms are weighted. Its frustrating but I navigate my way around. I presume as stakes increase the hands are free of weighting for obvious reasons. Most people committing a fraud do not intentionally leave a trail of breadcrumbs. And as I have stated before, if my suspicions are misplaced, so what? It simply means I play in cautious manner.

The reason I chip into such threads is because I think underlining caution regarding gambling is always a positive – especially when it is accepted that just a small minority of poker players are thought to be profitable.

If for one second, my thoughts were hinged on "weighted algorithms", that in it self would be enough to disassociate with the client. If you lose, it was predetermine and that holds true with winning. To then gravitate to higher buyins being safe?

Have to agree with caution, but for much different reason than what was stated. Would rather buy a lottery ticket than invest time in to what was perceived as fixed. Win or lose is then meaningless, so is the time spent.
 
D

DS3

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Sep 9, 2019
Total posts
7,495
Awards
1
GB
Chips
209
If for one second, my thoughts were hinged on "weighted algorithms", that in it self would be enough to disassociate with the client. If you lose, it was predetermine and that holds true with winning. To then gravitate to higher buyins being safe?

Have to agree with caution, but for much different reason than what was stated. Would rather buy a lottery ticket than invest time in to what was perceived as fixed. Win or lose is then meaningless, so is the time spent.
.

MrPokerVerse, appreciate the reply, but everything has context.

I love poker but have no option but to play online as my country of residence does not allow casinos. I am measured in what I say, they are suspicions. I never make ludicrous accusations that I am personally being targeted (no matter the level of frustration at times).

Weighted means many things - for one, that wet boards are constantly dealt to induce action. I have also noted in every such thread I have replied to (whether believable or not) that I am not a losing player. I am patient and ultimately profitable, so I have ample incentive to keep playing - if nothing else out of an enjoyment of beating a system, which I regard as poker and at times poker plus.
 
MrPokerVerse

MrPokerVerse

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 18, 2009
Total posts
2,826
Awards
2
Chips
63
.

MrPokerVerse, appreciate the reply, but everything has context.

I love poker but have no option but to play online as my country of residence does not allow casinos. I am measured in what I say, they are suspicions. I never make ludicrous accusations that I am personally being targeted (no matter the level of frustration at times).

Weighted means many things - for one, that wet boards are constantly dealt to induce action. I have also noted in every such thread I have replied to (whether believable or not) that I am not a losing player. I am patient and ultimately profitable, so I have ample incentive to keep playing - if nothing else out of an enjoyment of beating a system, which I regard as poker and at times poker plus.


Hope it not coming off as needling. I’m interested in how one approaches the game with this added element of beating the system. It seems you have a two fold strategy which by your admission is producing success.

This site and certain individuals were very instrumental in my development with poker. We both came up in a similar fashion with a apprehensive manner and slow progression to real money play.

Spent a lot time reading and following members in the freerolls, and ask questions. That resulted in participating in discussion groups and running programs on my HH. Most data pointed to errors on my part that were corrected but nothing to the sites program. No data ever pointed to anything regarding the program ran on any site.

Wouldn’t even know where to start adding that element or how one would improve. If it is just a fall back to the fault of the client? What methods do you use and how far do you go taking out navigating the system? Do you feel an accomplishment on winning a tournament. Can’t help to think it is a sterile approach to succeeding and growth.

Again, the replies and post has open an avenue that I never thought about. Don’t buy in to any site running favorable hands to change the results of a hand and how much one wins. Just don’t know how one would approach the game to alter the perception of a perceived out come?
 
dartablasta

dartablasta

Rock Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Total posts
105
Awards
2
Chips
37
Should be random, but i saw a couple things in recreational sites and i dont know:/
 
S

successlaw

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Sep 30, 2018
Total posts
1,018
Awards
2
Chips
154
No, this is just a superstition.
It's a long variance in all and you can see sometimes when you are chip leader you will lose every hand at some point
 
Q

Qrise

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 22, 2017
Total posts
269
Chips
0
Because in my understanding and my little experience, they favor the one with the most advantage at the table, the last card almost always coming out to complete the one with the most chips, I have seen that happen more than 80% of times.
Yes, I also saw this often. I think this human intervention brought this factor into their scoring system.
That is, adjusted
 
G

goodsaint

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 26, 2017
Total posts
125
Awards
1
Chips
0
I enjoy reading, playing against folks who have suspicions about a poker site. What I find hilarious is that some cry that poker stars play money is rigged. As for big stacks always winning, there was a time I was uncomfortable being a big stack. Had to learn to push smaller stacks around and when to put them to the test. The 10% rule helped with calling all ins with any 2 cards. J3 os calling an AA all in for 10% of my stack and flopping 2pr or a 3 on flop and river J for 2pr will always cause cries of idiot, fixed, or rigged. The contrast is when I've been a big stack and misplayed it missing the money. Or having seen other big stacks go from penthouse to outhouse. Only from study and work on my game have I come to see how I have won on every fixed, rigged site I've played on. Even the play money ones.
 
G

greenman

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 2, 2020
Total posts
330
Chips
0
billion dollar question . Get a tracker and go from there.Data doesn't lie .
 
C

CliffieDeuce

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 19, 2014
Total posts
147
Chips
0
I think if you play one tournament, the "weighting" will be against you, but the more you play, you will get your chance at playing any two cards and winning.

I have seen the big stack of the table win 10 hands in a row and he plays with any two cards.
 
SightUnseen

SightUnseen

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 24, 2015
Total posts
275
Awards
1
Chips
0
The long time debate, is online poker truly random. It's a software programmed by man, the same as if you're playing a video game on a computer, console or your mobile phone. Lets just leave it at that. But, what you can control are your decisions which are in your power. Weather you win or lose, all that matters is making the best decisions in that situation. Sort term you may lose, but long time you will be on top if you continue to make correct decisions. Most of all Have Fun! Good Luck!
 
Mati532

Mati532

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Total posts
1,699
Awards
4
AR
Chips
114
I think that online games are a game of rulera perhaps, it is also in the player when to go or not to go. In short, you have to study when to go or not to go!
 
D

DS3

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Sep 9, 2019
Total posts
7,495
Awards
1
GB
Chips
209
Hope it not coming off as needling. I’m interested in how one approaches the game with this added element of beating the system. It seems you have a two fold strategy which by your admission is producing success.

This site and certain individuals were very instrumental in my development with poker. We both came up in a similar fashion with a apprehensive manner and slow progression to real money play.

Spent a lot time reading and following members in the freerolls, and ask questions. That resulted in participating in discussion groups and running programs on my HH. Most data pointed to errors on my part that were corrected but nothing to the sites program. No data ever pointed to anything regarding the program ran on any site.

Wouldn’t even know where to start adding that element or how one would improve. If it is just a fall back to the fault of the client? What methods do you use and how far do you go taking out navigating the system? Do you feel an accomplishment on winning a tournament. Can’t help to think it is a sterile approach to succeeding and growth.

Again, the replies and post has open an avenue that I never thought about. Don’t buy in to any site running favorable hands to change the results of a hand and how much one wins. Just don’t know how one would approach the game to alter the perception of a perceived out come?

Again, I appreciate the dialogue.

No I do not employ any programs to analyze hands (though I do record ludicrous beats, and please note, ones which benefit me). I just observe things every time I play and patterns raise suspicions. Wet boards, big stack dominance (though that appears to have a specific pattern also) and of course the classics such as river cards.

Early days, I played regularly with a set of players in a quiet corner of a large site. We were very friendly with each other and one of our delights was spotting patterns, often on a daily basis. We would try to be first to nail the pattern...flushes, straights, trips etc. It was a lot of fun and we would crack each other up (this was over months). No one was bent out of shape in any way because it was a social game.

I have told my poker origin story elsewhere, but I was a passionate observer of live poker streams (primarily the European Poker Tour) who had never played a single hand. I then ventured online and recoiled as it all felt contrived. But- I ultimately felt compelled to learn, yet was cynical from the get go.

That said, you touch on something of note. As I learnt the game and got traction I started to pride myself how often I could cash in the play money MTTs...then I would enter as many free rolls as possible before ultimately joined the CC FR Club. I chalked whatever success I was enjoying down to study and playing.

But after periods of running in really odd manners yes, I had a realization that the good results (like bad) were much more question of luck/algorithm than any smart or creative play I had made. I certainly do not believe my poker fate on any given day rests in my hands. Yet, it is still enjoyable and profitable. if you remain measured in your approach.

In closing, I note I now play 5 sites and have cashed on all (it expanded since this thread started). Of the 5, there are two I am wary of and the other three seem to play fairly (but then all random number generators are not created equal). I think the point that is missed with someone such as myself, is if I feel (cliche) 'the deck is stacked against me' it all becomes even more of a fun challenge. Holding suspicions or not, beating other players and then beating the algorithm is rewarding.

And, to repeat, I have no choice in the matter, if I want to play, it can only be online.
 
D

D1enonli

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 5, 2020
Total posts
26
Chips
0
It comes down to how one justifies why they are losing. "It's rigged", "There's no way I should have lost that hand", blah blah blah.

Get real with yourself and justify why you're winning when you do well on a given day. Is that rigged in your favor, everyone else that you beat must feel you had some type of advantage....

It basically comes down to skill and luck. How many times do you see 2 or 3 ppl go all-in and you fold only to see you would have won the hand. Is the system calculating this choice also? I hear this all the time about rigged sites and to me it really doesn't matter if they were rigged (which they're not) because you have a choice on each hand, each street, each bet amount, etc. You can also choose not to play, which is what you should do if you think they're rigged.:eek:
 
MrPokerVerse

MrPokerVerse

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 18, 2009
Total posts
2,826
Awards
2
Chips
63
Again, I appreciate the dialogue.

No I do not employ any programs to analyze hands (though I do record ludicrous beats, and please note, ones which benefit me). I just observe things every time I play and patterns raise suspicions. Wet boards, big stack dominance (though that appears to have a specific pattern also) and of course the classics such as river cards.

Early days, I played regularly with a set of players in a quiet corner of a large site. We were very friendly with each other and one of our delights was spotting patterns, often on a daily basis. We would try to be first to nail the pattern...flushes, straights, trips etc. It was a lot of fun and we would crack each other up (this was over months). No one was bent out of shape in any way because it was a social game.

I have told my poker origin story elsewhere, but I was a passionate observer of live poker streams (primarily the European Poker Tour) who had never played a single hand. I then ventured online and recoiled as it all felt contrived. But- I ultimately felt compelled to learn, yet was cynical from the get go.

That said, you touch on something of note. As I learnt the game and got traction I started to pride myself how often I could cash in the play money MTTs...then I would enter as many free rolls as possible before ultimately joined the CC FR Club. I chalked whatever success I was enjoying down to study and playing.

But after periods of running in really odd manners yes, I had a realization that the good results (like bad) were much more question of luck/algorithm than any smart or creative play I had made. I certainly do not believe my poker fate on any given day rests in my hands. Yet, it is still enjoyable and profitable. if you remain measured in your approach.

In closing, I note I now play 5 sites and have cashed on all (it expanded since this thread started). Of the 5, there are two I am wary of and the other three seem to play fairly (but then all random number generators are not created equal). I think the point that is missed with someone such as myself, is if I feel (cliche) 'the deck is stacked against me' it all becomes even more of a fun challenge. Holding suspicions or not, beating other players and then beating the algorithm is rewarding.

And, to repeat, I have no choice in the matter, if I want to play, it can only be online.

After reading over the last reply, can't help but notice you have no tools to know where you profit most from. which hands are losing and just where the leaks are in your game are. Seeing patterns and keeping track of bad beats show a very small snap shot of how you are going.

Early on, ran a my HH, found out A Q was a big loser for me. I play it strong in any position. Was was an easy correction. Finding leaks like that and not getting value can be huge for getting further into cash. Algorithm, big stack dominance and river cards are just odds. There is nothing significant with that, it is a wrong path for growth.

I wish you luck in you're poker endeavor and continual success. You seem to be having fun, that is important.
 
G

greenman

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 2, 2020
Total posts
330
Chips
0
After reading over the last reply, can't help but notice you have no tools to know where you profit most from. which hands are losing and just where the leaks are in your game are. Seeing patterns and keeping track of bad beats show a very small snap shot of how you are going.

Early on, ran a my HH, found out A Q was a big loser for me. I play it strong in any position. Was was an easy correction. Finding leaks like that and not getting value can be huge for getting further into cash. Algorithm, big stack dominance and river cards are just odds. There is nothing significant with that, it is a wrong path for growth.

I wish you luck in you're poker endeavor and continual success. You seem to be having fun, that is important.
How in the world could anyone identify a pattern without a stock pile of data. By memory ? Either your not getting in the volume or a losing player. Either way no tracker ,no idea.

I am interested in your results . Specially if you play at acr.
 
MrPokerVerse

MrPokerVerse

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 18, 2009
Total posts
2,826
Awards
2
Chips
63
How in the world could anyone identify a pattern without a stock pile of data. By memory ? Either your not getting in the volume or a losing player. Either way no tracker ,no idea.

I am interested in your results . Specially if you play at acr.

I'm PokerVerse and MPVerse on ACR and BCP. Think you are confusing my response to what was said prior. Pattern is something I pay no attention too. HH analysis can be very helpful though. ACR is the same as the other 50 sites I have played on for around 20 years. Most people want to switch sites as the haven't found success. Human nature, can't win so it is the sites fault.

Might want to revisit the other threads between DS3 and myself. If you have any other questions, please ask.
 
Last edited:
1

1KrazyMofo

Rock Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 11, 2016
Total posts
273
Awards
2
Chips
4
Its random as it can be, I notice bad luck more then good luck though, as I don't really have days where I feel invincible as you always take a bad beat even when running good, but I do have days where I just think, kill me now.
 
J

JESSIE924

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 7, 2018
Total posts
3
Chips
0
No es así, por las limitaciones de la pandemia he jugado mucho últimamente, freerolls y torneos de 0,10 centavos de 360 ​​jugadores y me ha ocurrido que tratando de entrar en los puestos premiados he quedado all-in con K8 contra AA y he ganado y entrado en los premios. También me ha ocurrido tener AK all-in contra A7 en la mesa Q823 me sirven todas las cartas menos tres river fué 7.- Paciencia la suerte también juega.
 
D

DS3

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Sep 9, 2019
Total posts
7,495
Awards
1
GB
Chips
209
After reading over the last reply, can't help but notice you have no tools to know where you profit most from. which hands are losing and just where the leaks are in your game are....

....I wish you luck in you're poker endeavor and continual success. You seem to be having fun, that is important.

Thank you. Regarding what I am tooled up to do (or not do), excuse the humble brag, but...

On Saturday I played five free rolls, cashed four. On Sunday I played four free rolls and cashed three. In that mix was a final table. I have not quite yet completed a full year membership (platinum) in the Cards Chat Free Roll Club but across the sites I play, (a few which I joined because of CC), I have cashed a 'few' hundred times in the free rolls I play.

Yet, I still question what I see. More generally.

There are players that rely on their intuition. Some are high profile, such as Bryn Kenney and Dan Coleman. They both profess to limited study at best and Kenney says he has never used a solver - not once.

If I was on a mission (or was to embark on one) to raise my stakes then I might employ a solver but for now I feel no need (I have only dabbled to date).But I do study. However, I do not pretend those on my level are all playing GTO, high level poker, as they aren't. As for AQ being a leak, how many times do you lose with AQ before it registers as a so so hand?

As noted before, the presumption is always if anyone raises a question about online play/algorithms they are automatically a losing player (see above). That underlines to me poker players can suffer from a limited outlook. I am not a losing player and believe another who chips into these threads is not either.

That said, good weekend or not, I still saw plenty of dubious hands unfold. I can and do live with it.
 
Top 10 Games
Top