How can you prove you are not being cheated in online poker?

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RiverRick

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Can you really truly ever know? Couldn't they just write the program so their buddies win all the big hands?
 
perrypip

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You can track hand histories and find anomalies.
 
DizzyDeb717

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Can you really truly ever know? Couldn't they just write the program so their buddies win all the big hands?


I don't think you can ever truly know. That's why I just play small stakes and freerolls online for entertainment and experience. There's just way too much information out there about the cheating to ignore.
I caught a guy palming chips from my pot in a real life game recently too. Cheaters are everywhere, and I think it's much easier to cheat online.
 
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RiverRick

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I don't think you can ever truly know. That's why I just play small stakes and freerolls online for entertainment and experience. There's just way too much information out there about the cheating to ignore.
I caught a guy palming chips from my pot in a real life game recently too. Cheaters are everywhere, and I think it's much easier to cheat online.

I agree. Free rolls online. I'll never deposit money on any of these sites so their friends can win it off me.
 
Roobz75

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Maybe some truth in it. pokerstars got very shirty with me when I asked them why no matter what game I was playing, I always started as the BB or SB? The woman almost went off on one and said, all our games are very honest and keep up the highest integrity etc...
I told her, I wasn't accusing pokerstars of anything! just wanted to know the positioning of the blinds. After she calmed down, she said the seating is chosen at random.
Since then, my seating position isn't always on the blinds.....hmmmm
 
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Can you really truly ever know? Couldn't they just write the program so their buddies win all the big hands?


Agree with DizzyDeb717 - you can never truly know.

I take it for granted Random Number Generators have issues as they do not replicate true randomness. Beyond that from the minute I first watched any poker hands on line I thought everything looked suspect compared to live poker.

So I play on line (have no choice), am conservative and 'winning' if you will, but absolutely limit any exposure. As Deb noted, poker is rife with cheating which simply mirrors life in a broader sense.

I am fairly philosophical about it all and I do not quite go full conspiracy in that individuals are targeted personally. However, what I sense is players are profiled and then placed in streams- that when the cards hit the tables (for numerous reasons) one will find winning and losing seats.

A member called Deuce Parade recently contributed to a thread with a great post pointing out the EA Sports (FIFA Soccer) now track players ability and then 'level the playing field' so weaker players stay engaged on line....and of course EA Sports increases their bottom line in the process. Further to this they keep building your profile from successive visits. He then posed the question if they had the computing power to do this why would others not take advantage?

I agree and as I have said before if we actually knew how easy it was to weight card distribution in a subtle, virtually untraceable manner we would be shocked.

So I'll finish with with this. We have all played on line a million and one times to see a 'big stack' gain momentum. Day in and out this happens - strikingly obvious in MTTs. If Random Number Generation was truly random, how could any individual player enjoy momentum for an extended period?

Yet we witness players with miraculous momentum tourney in tourney out.
 
Nathan Williams

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You can never truly know 100% but we have incredible poker tracking tools available these days where massive statistical anomalies would quickly be found.

I have run millions of my own hands in these programs in the past and was unable to find any proof of widespread statistical anomalies on any of the most popular sites in particular.

But most people do not truly understand just how long the long run really is in poker (i.e. it takes hundreds of thousands of hands just to get past basic variance in this game) so this "debate" will likely never end.

This is actually the #1 question people ask me about so I have written an entire article about it as well:

https://www.blackrain79.com/2018/11/online-poker-rigged.html
 
KeyJey

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No way to prove they deceive us or not​
 
MAGICUZ

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Even if they cheat in some way, we will never know.Those players who lose they always think that they are being cheated.10 percent of players win, another 90 percent lose.So the choice is yours whether to play or not!
 
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Oxinthewater

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A friend of mine told me that he stopped playing online when he had quads beaten by quads. This is obviously very unlikely and of course unlucky to be on the losing side, but I looked it up and on pokerstars alone it should happen a handful of times every day.

So even an extreme example of an individual hand like this can prove nothing - it requires (at least) millions of hands to see that something is wrong.
 
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pablo lima

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look i don't really know how to do this anymore because many times i felt lezado by the site.
 
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DeuceParade

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If video game companies are going to great lengths to even the playing field between competitors, you can bet your bottom dollar that online poker sites do the same thing. Video game companies massively increase their bottom dollar by doing so (Don't be naive, people. That is literally the only objective of a business after all!), and online poker rooms stand to make billions more than video game companies do.

Players of the video games for years were going on to forums saying that things didn't feel right and that they swore that the games were artificially scripted (just like online poker players ;)). Just like lots of online poker players, they were ridiculed and told they were just "losing players who were whining".

Then someone found the EA Sports DDA Patent, which stands for "Dynamic Difficulty Adjustment". Here is an excerpt from that patent:
[0028]
Another solution that may be used in some types of competitive video games, such as racing games, is to vary the ability of the user or the user's competitor based on the relationship between the user and the user's competitor. For example, supposing that the video game is a racing game, the user's car may be made faster when the user is doing poorly and may be made slower when the user is doing well. This solution may result in what is sometimes referred to as a “rubber band effect.”

Page after page of this patent goes on to explain how when players connect to their online network, that they are connecting to a server that is constantly rating their skill level based on hundreds of factors, much like an ELO rating in chess. It will then subtly and artificially level the playing field between the two players so that the worse player doesn't become frustrated and quit. The patent even goes into detail about how to keep the players from ever knowing this is going on.

Keep in mind, that it doesn't mean that it is keeping the better player from winning. However, let's say that if the 2 players were to play 100 games and the better player would have won 80 times and lost 20 times, maybe now its more of a 60/40.

If lower-skilled players get frustrated and quit, they won't be around to purchase "Ultimate Team Packs", which are basically forms of gambling in which you get a random group of "cards" or players to put onto your team. A lot less money for them.

Well, if lesser skilled poker players get frustrated (or broke), they won't be around to generate rake for the poker sites. What makes them more money: A pool of 10,000 players of all skill levels, or a pool of 1000 sharks that play a lot less hands and don't go to the river as much? I think the answer is obvious. Now, just like the DDA Patent outlined above, this doesn't mean the better players won't still win over the long run, it just means that the long-run will be a lot longer. Again, will the site make more money if the better players win the money in 10,000 hands, or in 100,000 hands? Also once again, that answer is obvious.

I have been a live poker dealer and floor-man in Las Vegas for almost 20 years now. I have also been playing online poker since the "Paradise Poker" days. I can prove that I am a long-term winning player. And I'll be the first one to tell you that if you think there isn't some tinkering going on in online poker, you're naive and/or your ego is getting the best of you.
 
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luddite20

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I don't think there's a way to be sure. Maybe you can try to calculculate if the poker room get profit from tournaments or constantly pay overlay. All in all nobody do this for free.
 
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gryphon3005

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I do what I think most players do. I stick with a reputable platform like Pokerstars and assume they won't fiddle with their algorithms because being caught would cost them millions of dollars and perhaps their business entirely. I played for years and have seen all kinds of so called "patterns" that some could assume were suspicious. But, over time, I saw things somewhat equalled out. So, I don't think the companies are cheating. There may be players colluding using chat software but I stick to tournaments where getting on the same table is beyond their control.
 
terryk

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If video game companies are going to great lengths to even the playing field between competitors, you can bet your bottom dollar that online poker sites do the same thing. Video game companies massively increase their bottom dollar by doing so (Don't be naive, people. That is literally the only objective of a business after all!), and online poker rooms stand to make billions more than video game companies do.

Players of the video games for years were going on to forums saying that things didn't feel right and that they swore that the games were artificially scripted (just like online poker players ;)). Just like lots of online poker players, they were ridiculed and told they were just "losing players who were whining".

Then someone found the EA Sports DDA Patent, which stands for "Dynamic Difficulty Adjustment". Here is an excerpt from that patent:
[0028]
Another solution that may be used in some types of competitive video games, such as racing games, is to vary the ability of the user or the user's competitor based on the relationship between the user and the user's competitor. For example, supposing that the video game is a racing game, the user's car may be made faster when the user is doing poorly and may be made slower when the user is doing well. This solution may result in what is sometimes referred to as a “rubber band effect.”

Page after page of this patent goes on to explain how when players connect to their online network, that they are connecting to a server that is constantly rating their skill level based on hundreds of factors, much like an ELO rating in chess. It will then subtly and artificially level the playing field between the two players so that the worse player doesn't become frustrated and quit. The patent even goes into detail about how to keep the players from ever knowing this is going on.

Keep in mind, that it doesn't mean that it is keeping the better player from winning. However, let's say that if the 2 players were to play 100 games and the better player would have won 80 times and lost 20 times, maybe now its more of a 60/40.

If lower-skilled players get frustrated and quit, they won't be around to purchase "Ultimate Team Packs", which are basically forms of gambling in which you get a random group of "cards" or players to put onto your team. A lot less money for them.

Well, if lesser skilled poker players get frustrated (or broke), they won't be around to generate rake for the poker sites. What makes them more money: A pool of 10,000 players of all skill levels, or a pool of 1000 sharks that play a lot less hands and don't go to the river as much? I think the answer is obvious. Now, just like the DDA Patent outlined above, this doesn't mean the better players won't still win over the long run, it just means that the long-run will be a lot longer. Again, will the site make more money if the better players win the money in 10,000 hands, or in 100,000 hands? Also once again, that answer is obvious.

I have been a live poker dealer and floor-man in Las Vegas for almost 20 years now. I have also been playing online poker since the "Paradise Poker" days. I can prove that I am a long-term winning player. And I'll be the first one to tell you that if you think there isn't some tinkering going on in online poker, you're naive and/or your ego is getting the best of you.
Dude,,do you know how many times ive have read this exact statement,,,we get it,,,,:) There is a difference between knowing how to "play" poker,,,,and a way to "win" at poker,,,you havn't figured it out yet,,,get it? ;)
 
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DeuceParade

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Dude,,do you know how many times ive have read this exact statement,,,we get it,,,,:) There is a difference between knowing how to "play" poker,,,,and a way to "win" at poker,,,you havn't figured it out yet,,,get it? ;)


I've tried deciphering this several times now and I can't figuring out what you are trying to say here.
 
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DeuceParade

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PLAYFUL1

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Cheaters are all over the place butt playing with bots are just knot rite.
 
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I think you can't truly know, I guess you have to assume that poker rooms are honest if you believe that you can win money in online poker otherwise it does not worth to play. In general, I believe that poker rooms are legit, but I don't trust 100% because of cases like Absolute Poker.
 
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Well, I asked a question at the end of my post and no one answered it other than the cliche of 'millions of hands needed' to get a grip on variance. Seriously, why?

My question was simple. Every day, all of us witness a player (most frequently the big stack) gain momentum and starting knocking all and sundry out with any two cards. We all (I mean everyone of us) see this 24/7 round the clock -feel free to state otherwise.

As noted, how can Random Number Generation give a player momentum? And then keep repeating that momentum 24 hours a day across all tables...

Well Occum's Razor for me.

The simplest (least conspiracy theory) explanation is that the software is weighted to do so. It would like to keep the MTT on schedule and spark a healthy attrition rate among players. As others have noted before, you could virtually set your clock to how some daily tourneys play down, hit the bubble, then final table. The regularity it risible. And please spare us all the rising blinds excuse, it does not pass muster. Make a direct comparison to live tourneys and note how they can play quickly or slowly.

The things is, I am simply a healthy skeptic, not a losing player - as some cliched poster will always claim about any contrarian poster.

Apart from momentum, I have numerous other issues with online play but so what? I deal with it and accept this is the deck we have to play with - literally and figuratively.

People can opt to play or not and my attitude is limit your exposure.
 
brunonick269

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You can track hand histories and find anomalies.
That the best way to know, have programs that take your plays and make a rastering. If there is a lot of thigs that is not cool you will see.
 
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jorgejarapy

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I think it is very difficult to know, which is why I prefer to only play freerolls and generate money from what I earn in these tournaments. That if I understand that if I ever want to withdraw that money I need a previous deposit. if I'm wrong I hope someone corrects me
 
Kenzie 96

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Can you really truly ever know? Couldn't they just write the program so their buddies win all the big hands?




Just stay away from tables their buddies are playing on. You are welcome.
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