Folding top pair/top kicker

guccipix

guccipix

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I was playing a turbo MTT tonight on ignition. 122 players entered and we were down to the last 29. I raise AJo UTG+1. Player next to me flats.

Flop comes jack high on a super dry board. I bet about one third pot and they shove. I snap call, they show QQ, it holds.

An important piece of information here is that we were both big stacks, probably about 6th and 7th in chips. I should NEVER be snap calling here. We're nearing the bubble and we both have a lot of chips (although it is only about 20 BB). This is never a bluff and calling was silly, especially snap calling. I think the weakest hand he could be doing this with is maybe JQ (considering it is only a $5 tournament with a quick structure) but usually has better (an overpair most likely). I guess because he didn't 3-bet I didn't even second guess, but from early position, flatting QQ may be standard.

Anyways, I believe that TP/TK should have been a standard fold here, had I been using my brain. What do you think?
 
Andrew Popov

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I do not like ATo and AJo hands in such tournament situations. they are too often beaten AQ + and pocket pairs, if you do not get into the board. Do not hesitate to just throw it on the flop, or face an obvious aggression preflop. Better keep your chips on the bubble, no matter how expensive the tournament you play. A cheap tournament is not at all a guarantee of bad bands for villains. You should always consider that you need to have a good hand, not just a bluff with an ace like the highest card.
 
makisaa

makisaa

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It could show you another J, but no! It was a good play from you, reasonable!
 
nml

nml

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If you are going to fold it post flop for the reasons you mentioned, why play it in the first place?

I think you are strongly overestimating his range. A 1/3 pot bet from the opener is pretty weak IMO. He could easily be semi bluffing here with any two overcards, if he paired one of the two little cards, smaller pocket pairs, etc.

Even if we make the assumption that he’s only shoving with QQ+ and other J/broadway combos (and I think this is really faulty), you still have 57% equity!

Easy call, just a cooler. If I were to change anything, it’s that you don’t open in the first place.
 
henriquemaduro

henriquemaduro

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That is one of the reasons why I dont like AJo
 
XYZ2123

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I hate AJo. I lose so much with this hand and with top-top in general. These are always tough decisions.You probably should have folded, if for no other reason, because you were a big stack late in a tourney and it was for all your chips. The cards don't matter. In this spot, this decision should have been about stack preservation, not winning the hand.
 
cskwin

cskwin

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AJ (?) is one hand is real funny hand when you see some cases it win and most cases make you loose big stack. terrible. I had lost to poor hands in the last two days more than 5 times. seems I should stop playing AJ for few days. lol.
 
wilpinsi

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Generally I do not come into hand at this point in the game with marginal hands, I prefer to enter with AA-QQ-KK-AK-AQ-JJ
In case of losing the play, I will not remorseful, because it was a play with excellent cards, in this case it may be that the variance has knocked me over.
Another fact that I observe and how many are still missing for me to check the ITM, even if the entry in this game has cost little, I try to return my investment at all costs.
 
E

eggtart

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One of those hands that once you open and hit, you are mostly bound to call shoves due the the equity factor...unlesss you have some sort of information on your opponent
 
Newzooozooo

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I think that you did everything right, but this happens sometimes. Do not be frustrated, just keep playing poker. Good luck.
 
Whaevoz

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This is a good example of what is correct play in a cash game may not be in a tournament. :bandit:
 
HK_47

HK_47

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I keep changing my mind about this hand but i do think it's a fold, could easily have a set in addition to over pairs, especially since he only flats in early position. I would probably have made the same call tbh but this is a situation I didn't have to be in but I got to learn from anyways! :D
 
terryk

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Thx for posting this,,,a prime example of the type of hand that you need to find a fold.I used to call here,,,all the time.;)
 
B

B1BOMBER

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If you only have J's for your top pair I fold if he comes over the top all in for at that point I feel my opponent can beat J's and at that point in the game it is not worth chasing an A.:D:D
 
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Makoto

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Final

I'd only fold that at final table.. maybe lol
 
gabpoker

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Standard fold against most players. I would need a lot of history of the villain bluffing here to call the jam.
 
steve22055

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You are correct is stating that you should never snap call in this scenario. Imo there are two reasons he would make that bet. One, is a bluff to steal so close to the bubble. Two, he's got a pretty good hand. Is it worth blowing the big stack with a pair of J's and hoping to catch an A? Consider their range of cards for making such a bet and what kind of player they are and go from there. Hopefully, we all learn from our mistakes. Good luck at the tables!
 
B

bmanxx22

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bad position

The 2 things that killed you
- the bad position with a non premium hand put you in a bad situation.
- calling the re-raise in that stage of the tourney pretty much sealed your fate
Raising out of position is already a risky move. Doing it with a non premium hand can put you in a bad situation very quickly. Because the risk of being re-raised or flatted with a harder to read situation out of position. The more people that are on the table the tighter you want to be early position. Playing "premium hands only" has 3 benefits. 1 when you hit you are more likely to have the best hand. 2 you fold more often saving you from bad situations. 3 its harder to be re-raised off of your hand. Now the less people on the table the looser you can be out of position.

I understand the blinds get crazy and there is more pressure to win hands. These situations are what separate the noobs from the pros. The later you are in the tournament the more important it is to have a read on the table. Some of the questions you should ask yourself .

Was this player tight? how many chips did he have? how much did you bet? do you have an aggressive image on the table? Whats your position? How manys chips did you have?
 
Eric Salvador

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The shove in this any situation needs to be treaded lightly. If you've built a pattern of your opponent and you have realized he's opening to frequent then this could be a call situation. If he's shoving 2+ times an orbit if safe to assume his range is to wide and he's shoving with a lot of mid pairs and draws. Without you specifying that he was a maniac at the table this was a terrible call. I would say he has a lot of low pocket pairs. Leading me to believe bottom or middle set. Online I would put QQ, KK, AA in there range. If it were live I would for sure take out the overpairs. Now I don't think this is a terrible call just for those reasons. The largest being that you were top 10 in chips and needed to avoid situations that could result in you losing your stack. You need to find a ways to exploit players weaknesses at the table. Here you decided to play outdated poker and refuse to fold top pair. This is a large part of what will get you to the next level. Finding a fold in this situation avoids you finding the rail.
 
T

thackro

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Always tough to fold top pair, top kicker on a dry board but I think your point about the snap call being the error is well taken. I have done the same more than a few times. I believe it comes down to discipline which is something I need to work on too
 
Spaceman

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You lose to sets, QQ, KK, AA, and two pairs. What do you beat here? KJ, QJ, J10, J9 and bluffs. Would your opponent shove with that holding when you bet 1/3 the pot on flop? As they say unless you dont have a read on your opponent assume monsters.

If you dont know if he is overagressive and shoving with medium hands, then if he shoved over your 1/3 pot flop bet on that board, since you are not a short stack, I would fold and find a better spot to call a shove. Of course you could call and see just a pair or a bluff since you are on the bubble and then have a stack ready for final table. Its poker choices. But at least I would wait for the bubble to burst to call that shove if I was sensing something off with that shove.

The only thing you can do here is making maybe the flop bet larger, so to be sure if you are shoved on that you are not versus a medium hand and its either a bluff or a monster.
 
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notahead

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Hard spot if you gonna open aj from utg not stack off rest on jack high flop dry thinking gotta be fold pre flop when you are only 20 bb deep
 
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nellorossi83

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A problem of the poker players is wait the another players need or should have a standart way of bet. But i believe in this hand you did a Nice play. I always say that this is poker. You can play Well and lose some hands!!
 
A

abyk

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Depends on the level of competition, if you're playing in freerolls, it's fine to call with that hand, but if it's in a serious tournament and you are both big stacks, they won't just shove with a pair. They either have high pockets, two pair or hit a trip. odds are you will lose and better off folding.
 
Rob Hobson

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Even AA and KK we've got to throw away sometimes, depending on the situation. It's hard to do it but the pros do.
 
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