So I am a little bit ahead of most people here in that I am actually capable of playing poker for a living.

With my current win rate if I was to drop out of uni right now not take a job and just play poker full time I could survive pay rent and pay food of poker winnings.

However this is not as good as it sounds my win rate would still put me close to minimum wage though slightly above it. I would not have to pay tax so maybe a bit more then slightly above.

If I made more effort I could make a decent wage in all probability more then I would make when I graduate working for someone so why dont I just do that?

Well because I don't think poker has a future online poker is a sitting duck in my opinion waiting to be exploited and killed by bots. I mass table sit and goes and I realise a lot of my play is robotic true I adapt to certain weird things I see but for the most part the play is pretty much robotic and a bot could be programmed to do the exact same thing I do but much better.

You may think this wont apply to high stakes but ultimately bots have beaten our elites at chess Go and all other games its only a matter of time before bots that can beat anyone appear online. Poker sites have software to track them but then this could be on a second computer scanning the screen and informing a human what to click. perhaps they could detect non human playing patterns but then a bot could be programmed to look more like a human player and appear indistinguishable from a human player.

Once bots properly come onto online poker the game is dead. How long we have until this happen is anyones guess a year 5 years 10 years 20? but it will happen it is inevitable.

Then what life poker? but the issue with that is in order to make a decent living one has to play reasonably high stakes eg £2/5+ blinds considering 100-300 BB buyin for cash tables is the norm depending which casino you go to we could be looking at £500 to £1500 to sit down with on a cash table. Huge variance and one would need say 50 buyins for cash is the standard so a £25000 bank roll yeah anyone who has that capital has better options then poker.

on top of this poker is not really profitable for the casinos in terms of oppertunity cost a roulette or black jack table makes them significantly more money then a poker a table can but the poker is more like a promotion to get people through the doors.

will the casinos even keep poker around much longer? you might say absolutely but who knows either way for sure. and even if they do again huge variance for life poker.

so the question is does poker even have a future in terms of an income or job?

Good thread, however until anyone conclusively proves there are BOTS in online poker, it will always thrive and attract new business.
There are a lot of regulated sites out there with a lot of revenue to lose if we are to fully believe that bots are operating today.
I have played live poker for 9 years now - my cashes were large and infrequent for 4 years and in the last 5, i have become a better player and more consistent player so much so that i aim to turn pro next year...good luck on your future and any decision you make...

First, congrats on you abilities! It's good you can play and actually make money. However, I'm not so sure you need to worry about bots as much as you think. There are levels of technology that are progressing as far as authentication goes and much more. While I do believe software can be developed to create a great poker playing AI, I don't think it's as terrible a future as you believe. The variation and human factor in poker makes it a little more difficult to write a program (that would go undetected) that would kill it online. Think about VR, too. The layers of that type of programming are so much more complex... that's more likely the future of online play anyway, in the time frame you're worried about. So, rest easy and keep playing. The future is bright.

Poker has a future. In all its forms, poker with be here.

Sounds like you are doing great. One suggestion: withdraw often, don't keep all your bankroll in one place.

I have definitely seen a decline in Live poker in my area (WA state). In the last couple years, I have seen 4+ small poker rooms reduce in size and ultimately shut down. We had 2 large poker rooms (30+ tables) and one of them reduced to 15 or so table and I played a tournament Tuesday night at the other and there was only a single cash table going. So there is a definite visible decline in my area.

I have no knowledge about why, but my gut tells me that A LOT OF people thought that poker is super easy to make money, so they gave it a shot. Once these novices realized that to be good at poker you actually have to put in the time to learn and to practice, they then moved on to other things. So now the only folks left playing are the good ones, except for the small percentage of new players that poke in and give it a shot.

Online is another story, but until the US makes online poker truly legal, it can only go so far. Many sites come and go and when they go, they take your money with them. Once you have a couple thousand dollars in winnings become unretrievable, you tend to back off. I still play online, but because of the money i can't get back and the legality in the US, i will not make further deposits.

So is poker dead or dying? I don't think Live poker can ever disappear. It may decline some more, but it will find an equilibrium and survive. Online is here to stay, but I do believe the legality of it is its limitation.

Originally Posted by LukeSilver

So I am a little bit ahead of most people here in that I am actually capable of playing poker for a living.

With my current win rate if I was to drop out of uni right now not take a job and just play poker full time I could survive pay rent and pay food of poker winnings.

However this is not as good as it sounds my win rate would still put me close to minimum wage though slightly above it. I would not have to pay tax so maybe a bit more then slightly above.

If I made more effort I could make a decent wage in all probability more then I would make when I graduate working for someone so why dont I just do that?

Well because I don't think poker has a future online poker is a sitting duck in my opinion waiting to be exploited and killed by bots. I mass table sit and goes and I realise a lot of my play is robotic true I adapt to certain weird things I see but for the most part the play is pretty much robotic and a bot could be programmed to do the exact same thing I do but much better.

You may think this wont apply to high stakes but ultimately bots have beaten our elites at chess Go and all other games its only a matter of time before bots that can beat anyone appear online. Poker sites have software to track them but then this could be on a second computer scanning the screen and informing a human what to click. perhaps they could detect non human playing patterns but then a bot could be programmed to look more like a human player and appear indistinguishable from a human player.

Once bots properly come onto online poker the game is dead. How long we have until this happen is anyones guess a year 5 years 10 years 20? but it will happen it is inevitable.

Then what life poker? but the issue with that is in order to make a decent living one has to play reasonably high stakes eg £2/5+ blinds considering 100-300 BB buyin for cash tables is the norm depending which casino you go to we could be looking at £500 to £1500 to sit down with on a cash table. Huge variance and one would need say 50 buyins for cash is the standard so a £25000 bank roll yeah anyone who has that capital has better options then poker.

on top of this poker is not really profitable for the casinos in terms of oppertunity cost a roulette or black jack table makes them significantly more money then a poker a table can but the poker is more like a promotion to get people through the doors.

will the casinos even keep poker around much longer? you might say absolutely but who knows either way for sure. and even if they do again huge variance for life poker.

so the question is does poker even have a future in terms of an income or job?

Luke it really does seem so at first glance, but there's the matter of public opinion...as far as that would apply to poker...everyone stands in awe of a bot that can play chess at grand master level....ooohing and aaaing over AI in so many other fields too...but nobody gives a continental fart for a fancy poker bot...in fact quite the opposite. So where would the money come from to develope it? Bots do exist right now of course but they are all beatable...it's not too difficult to pick them out and take their money. So let's join the table and enjoy our Bot Breakfast...lol

Originally Posted by freestocks

Poker has a future. In all its forms, poker with be here.

Sounds like you are doing great. One suggestion: withdraw often, don't keep all your bankroll in one place.

agreed, the US may have blackballed online gaming, but as so, you can easily see how many new sites pop up regularly and the constant way ppl find to get around it. it seems online has grown. As to bot players, I'd rather sit at a table of bots than real people. A bot plays each hand the same way, and once you see through their program, it's like raping blinds from someone sitting out.

There are very large edges left in the game, and definitely can make a good living long term.

That being said: There is still lots of uncertainty, and you should stay in school and get a real job.

End of online poker: bots indistinguishable from human players

End of all poker: android lifeforms indistinguishable from humans

Originally Posted by pirateglenn

Good thread, however until anyone conclusively proves there are BOTS in online poker

Glenn, there already BOTS playing on the tables online.

Poker,

There may well be but I've never seen true evidence of this. Please educate me. 😉

It's may be possible on big tornaments as i seen some supises players in youtube videos with torneys like sunday million but never seen any on cash games so im not worry about it

I think that there is a future for poker and everyone who wants to play poker has a future for games and profits, if you know how to play and win well, then why not get more work, and if you win well, then why work? You can simply win money at home or in a casino at tournaments or in a cash game!

Originally Posted by LukeSilver

So I am a little bit ahead of most people here in that I am actually capable of playing poker for a living.

With my current win rate if I was to drop out of uni right now not take a job and just play poker full time I could survive pay rent and pay food of poker winnings.

However this is not as good as it sounds my win rate would still put me close to minimum wage though slightly above it. I would not have to pay tax so maybe a bit more then slightly above.

If I made more effort I could make a decent wage in all probability more then I would make when I graduate working for someone so why dont I just do that?

Well because I don't think poker has a future online poker is a sitting duck in my opinion waiting to be exploited and killed by bots. I mass table sit and goes and I realise a lot of my play is robotic true I adapt to certain weird things I see but for the most part the play is pretty much robotic and a bot could be programmed to do the exact same thing I do but much better.

You may think this wont apply to high stakes but ultimately bots have beaten our elites at chess Go and all other games its only a matter of time before bots that can beat anyone appear online. Poker sites have software to track them but then this could be on a second computer scanning the screen and informing a human what to click. perhaps they could detect non human playing patterns but then a bot could be programmed to look more like a human player and appear indistinguishable from a human player.

Once bots properly come onto online poker the game is dead. How long we have until this happen is anyones guess a year 5 years 10 years 20? but it will happen it is inevitable.

Then what life poker? but the issue with that is in order to make a decent living one has to play reasonably high stakes eg £2/5+ blinds considering 100-300 BB buyin for cash tables is the norm depending which casino you go to we could be looking at £500 to £1500 to sit down with on a cash table. Huge variance and one would need say 50 buyins for cash is the standard so a £25000 bank roll yeah anyone who has that capital has better options then poker.

on top of this poker is not really profitable for the casinos in terms of oppertunity cost a roulette or black jack table makes them significantly more money then a poker a table can but the poker is more like a promotion to get people through the doors.

will the casinos even keep poker around much longer? you might say absolutely but who knows either way for sure. and even if they do again huge variance for life poker.

so the question is does poker even have a future in terms of an income or job?

Bots have already defeated elite players heads up. Stay away from heads up and you'll be fine.

If your concerns were a possibility then GTO would have been solved by now.

GTO assumes everyone understands GTO. Exploitative play will always win vs GTO.

Can't speak for 3 handed poker but 6 max+ will never be solved by bots because bots would have to use GTO in order to beat these games.
GTO is a myth that leads to paralysis by analysis.

Poker is safe.

I hope you come across this article this time next year.

Until then I'll be a millionaire, I'm sure it's very happy.

To play poker to pay the life, extremely difficult To become the winning player in the long term and, as a result, to begin to pay the bills for the account of poker, a task extremely heavy and vremyazatratny. If the poker actually would be the simple admission in easy life, then, believe me, all would be engaged in it! Regardless of that, you play poker in online or in offline, in modern poker realities in a game there is already not a lot of easy money how many was ten years ago. If a decade ago you could meet at a table of nothing understanding at all (even governed!) fish, today you will hardly be able to face such deal.

I think when the bots invade online poker it will be over. The best thing to do is enjoy it by then, and improve the techniques in live poker.

Bots have been around for years.
On online poker sites the bots may be there, but there comes a time when they are detected. It is true that now the bots can be more sophisticated but also the tools to detect them have evolved.

I feel the poker market/offer, in general, worse every year that passes.

Just a matter of time for it to be 100% -EV

one poker will not be full, but this is not a bad profitable hobby, it is very difficult to keep a good game for many years. However, there is a chance to win a good amount and never play again for the sake of profit.

The bots are not invincible, they can reduce losses perhaps and maximize profits, but as long as luck exists (variance) everything is possible. Anyway that is another one of my fears like

Originally Posted by fa1920

The bots are not invincible, they can reduce losses perhaps and maximize profits, but as long as luck exists (variance) everything is possible. Anyway that is another one of my fears like

Here's a question for you (and all readers) to consider. We all play poker with the mindset that over the long term, we can run a profit if we play our cards correctly. However, most players are still losing players. What happens when most players are bots playing with the same theory and approach as players who stay on top of the game? Who will be the losing players then? Or does poker become a break even game?

I wonder if Wild Bill was sitting in Deadwood before he got shot in the head, thinking, "I wonder how much longer I will be able to play poker."

I think that the new generation of player should be educated to play bad... So there will always be some fish to take money from :P

But honestly, I'm very scared about the decline of poker since I began to play (2004). The future has certainly been brighter.

think you worry too much ... in the end every day there is more interest in poker so I see it unlikely that in a future fenced decline ......

That all depends if the US government gets their heads out of their you know what, and lets adults play poker on their own damn computers.

Honestly bots would never be an issue , as somebody who has spent the last few years learning about about Advanced AI and the future of AI as part of my degree, AI is super linear , it is super obvious if a bot is playing and somebody said well you can make it more like a human , which in AI sense that not possible in AI as the way a person acts is so random and in the moment a lot of the time , AI cannot be truly random , so you would still always be able to spot it out , then also AI in poker once learnt how it plays will have ways to abuse it, as people have said playing a bot would probably be easier once you figure out it pattern compared to a person id defiantly prefer to play a bot, the only reason bots are so good at heads on is because a 1v1 is a lot easier to program as its a linear outcome you don't have to equate for multiple people at once.
So bots should never be an issue, if in the future AI significantly changes and is able to stop being linear by that time all technology will be completely different so poker online might be done is some different format today which only can work with human interaction who knows what the future hold tbh.

Originally Posted by SweetLemonz

AI in poker once learnt how it plays will have ways to abuse it, as people have said playing a bot would probably be easier once you figure out it pattern compared to a person

some BOTS are designed to adjust to other players based on their stats./database

id defiantly prefer to play a bot, the only reason bots are so good at heads on is because a 1v1 is a lot easier to program as its a linear outcome you don't have to equate for multiple people at once.
So bots should never be an issue, if in the future AI significantly changes and is able to stop being linear by that time all technology will be completely different so poker online might be done is some different format today which only can work with human interaction who knows what the future hold tbh.

Reading your comment tells me pretty much the opposite of what you're trying to portray. To me it's obvious you know very little about Bots in online poker.... and very little about poker.

Originally Posted by pirateglenn

Poker,

There may well be but I've never seen true evidence of this. Please educate me. 😉

If they did not exist you would not be able to find websites selling them but I am sure you will if you have a little google! I think more should be done to shut these sites down and more serious reprimands for players using them as it is cheating whether or not bots are beatable.

Originally Posted by pjokay

If they did not exist you would not be able to find websites selling them but I am sure you will if you have a little google! I think more should be done to shut these sites down and more serious reprimands for players using them as it is cheating whether or not bots are beatable.

Agreed!
I'm also certain that they play far better than the majority of the posters here on this forum... most wouldn't know it's a bot & also would be getting crushed by them.

Originally Posted by SweetLemonz

Honestly bots would never be an issue , as somebody who has spent the last few years learning about about Advanced AI and the future of AI as part of my degree, AI is super linear , it is super obvious if a bot is playing and somebody said well you can make it more like a human , which in AI sense that not possible in AI as the way a person acts is so random and in the moment a lot of the time , AI cannot be truly random , so you would still always be able to spot it out , then also AI in poker once learnt how it plays will have ways to abuse it, as people have said playing a bot would probably be easier once you figure out it pattern compared to a person id defiantly prefer to play a bot, the only reason bots are so good at heads on is because a 1v1 is a lot easier to program as its a linear outcome you don't have to equate for multiple people at once.
So bots should never be an issue, if in the future AI significantly changes and is able to stop being linear by that time all technology will be completely different so poker online might be done is some different format today which only can work with human interaction who knows what the future hold tbh.

Honestly I feel that misinformation & garbage like this ^ shouldn't even be posted. Some might actually believe you. (but maybe that's a good thing? ... at least for the BOT companies & users it is).
I can guarantee you would have 0% chance at beating BOTs on 6max cash tables even at the lowest of limits.

Imo the greatest threat to online poker is government crackdown (like black friday in USA in 2011) which can change online poker landscape in an instant. For example, in my country, Belarus, online poker has recently become "regulated"; but regulation requires service provider to have a physical casino in Belarus (among other things) which seems like an end for global poker sites presence (when the law will come into force).

Of course, some players choose to move to countries where online poker is legal. But regulars get their profits from recreational players (in general), and ban on online poker means reduction in player field at the cost of recreational players mostly.

And if you put explosive rise of AI into picture the future of online poker becomes way too uncertain. I'm not saying it'll be dead but the future does look pessimistic.

Its became more difficult to win but people learned many of the concepts and fundamentals by playing online poker.

I think Online and Casino poker will be around for a long time. More states are legalizing online poker in the US. I live in PA and it is now legal and will be up and running 1st QTR 2019. To address the other question about quitting your job and making a bit above minimum wage. Don't do it!! There are no guarantees in poker. You may run hot for awhile but there will be downturns and there may be months with no profit. Play for fun and if you ever get to the point of having a substantial bankroll decide then if it is the right move.

Originally Posted by puzzlefish

End of online poker: bots indistinguishable from human players

End of all poker: android lifeforms indistinguishable from humans

I agree with you.

I'd say poker has a future. The online game needs to stay friendly to recs. Less bots, giving recs decent rewards for playing on the site. The regs/pros will be there when the action is there. And they can play on many sites which helps the game.

I wish we could get back to pre Black Friday, but I don't see that happening. Whether it's in the US or overseas, having steps/good sattys to big events are important. Keeps the so called poker dream and bucket list experience alive for your average joe. It would be nice if more and more states got fully regulated poker in the US. It's moving super slow, but we can only hope the best for the future.

Originally Posted by LukeSilver

So I am a little bit ahead of most people here in that I am actually capable of playing poker for a living.

With my current win rate if I was to drop out of uni right now not take a job and just play poker full time I could survive pay rent and pay food of poker winnings.

However this is not as good as it sounds my win rate would still put me close to minimum wage though slightly above it. I would not have to pay tax so maybe a bit more then slightly above.

If I made more effort I could make a decent wage in all probability more then I would make when I graduate working for someone so why dont I just do that?

Well because I don't think poker has a future online poker is a sitting duck in my opinion waiting to be exploited and killed by bots. I mass table sit and goes and I realise a lot of my play is robotic true I adapt to certain weird things I see but for the most part the play is pretty much robotic and a bot could be programmed to do the exact same thing I do but much better.

You may think this wont apply to high stakes but ultimately bots have beaten our elites at chess Go and all other games its only a matter of time before bots that can beat anyone appear online. Poker sites have software to track them but then this could be on a second computer scanning the screen and informing a human what to click. perhaps they could detect non human playing patterns but then a bot could be programmed to look more like a human player and appear indistinguishable from a human player.

Once bots properly come onto online poker the game is dead. How long we have until this happen is anyones guess a year 5 years 10 years 20? but it will happen it is inevitable.

Then what life poker? but the issue with that is in order to make a decent living one has to play reasonably high stakes eg £2/5+ blinds considering 100-300 BB buyin for cash tables is the norm depending which casino you go to we could be looking at £500 to £1500 to sit down with on a cash table. Huge variance and one would need say 50 buyins for cash is the standard so a £25000 bank roll yeah anyone who has that capital has better options then poker.

on top of this poker is not really profitable for the casinos in terms of oppertunity cost a roulette or black jack table makes them significantly more money then a poker a table can but the poker is more like a promotion to get people through the doors.

will the casinos even keep poker around much longer? you might say absolutely but who knows either way for sure. and even if they do again huge variance for life poker.

so the question is does poker even have a future in terms of an income or job?

It depends on where you live, how much the cost of living is etc. Taxes will also be a big thing to consider when comparing poker to a normal job.

I have the rise and fall and rise and fall of Poker in all its forms over the last 20 years even. I really dont see it going away any time soon

Great post. I feel like poker has a future, however I feel like the popularity is fading and online poker is difficult to make a decent livable wage. Players are much better than they were in the past because more and more information on how to play is available. "Donks" do not frequent tables as much and there are more decent players sitting to your left and right. Adaptability is key if you aim to be a successful player and I feel like, at least for me, I need to change my style of play to adapt to the new dynamic at the tables.

I believe that poker has no future and this is purely my personal opinion.

pokthere always somebody gone play poker but its a hard way to making money

Poker has been around for thousands of years might be around for thousands more,
Only time will tell.

I think poker will always be around, but of course the popularity will ebb and flow as with any game that’s been around for hundreds of years.

Congratulations for the regularity, great topic, this doubt must be many members I think it is quite profitable the comments help a lot in several doubts

Poker sites will suck it dry long before Bot's ever have the chance to ruin the game.

people will not stop playing poker so poker will always

10 years ago they said that poker is dying! 3 years ago after pokerstars canceled rakeback everyone said that poker is dying! Today they say that poker is dying! but what I see is the opening of new rooms, the number of offline events is increasing, in the jubilee side of the million million played 62,000 people !!! is poker dying ???

As is seems, right now is not the best time for poker, because already most of the people played it and in some places poker is just out of law, so you just can,t play it. Right now the level of play is much better, then it was for example 5 years ago.
Right now it,s really harder to win anything, especially in the freeroll games. So if it,s harder to earn money from poker, for sure, lots of people will try to find another ways to get it.

poker will allways be here it has gotten more and more popular over the last 60 years.

poker will never dissapate.

I think to earn money is harder and harder. You had to improve your game, train use programms. Now I think better to play for fun.