I read this article today, http://www.duluthpoker.com/cheat-at-poker/online/, and it was very informative.

There are times when I get a gnawing feeling in certain games, by the actions of players. I wondered if it was possible that they could see my cards or if they knew another player at the table and were communicating.

I have hesitated to make any substantial deposits on either site I play on for this reason. I suppose if I do I will only play certain games to try and minimize that possibility.

I don't know if there are any programs that can "see" my cards, but I do suspect there are situations where other players collude with each other. I certainly hope the percentage of cheats is low, but with my faith in humanity being shaken by the immense greed that is exhibited every day makes me feel the percentage is higher in certain countries.


What is to stop poker sites from having fake accounts to generate pots and win tournaments, giving the illusion that there was a "real" player that won? Can or does anyone verify all these supposed accounts? Cheaters will cheat and poker sites are possibly capable of being "legit" cheats. They are in it to make money are they not?


I bet they are not alone in fudging stats to appear as though they have more customers, just ask twitter how they had 1.8 million users that didn't exist. But the poker sites are more than just fudging stats, I bet they do have many fake accounts. I bet they have customers that have more than one account that play on the same table under different names.


Some smart greedy bastards know how to game this system.

According to your own link...

Can poker cheats see my cards on the internet?

I highly doubt it. Anybody who is capable of doing this made their own private software and is very wealthy because most online poker rooms use Thwarte 128-bit security to encrypt all of their code. In addition to that, players are not directly connected to each other, but are connected to the online poker room, so hackers would have an impossible time doing this. Some people do claim that they have software that can show you other people’s cards. Apparently this software allows you to see other player’s hole cards, or force opponents to only have one option, fold. Don’t worry about this though because online poker gaming software is incredibly advanced and the developers have already made efforts to detect this type of software before poker cheats can sit down at a table. Don’t waste your time or money on this software because it’s not only an attempt to cheat, but also won’t do anything but ultimately get your account frozen and all of your money would be forfeitted.

I play cash games and have found an increasing number of situations where I am almost positive that there is collusion among some of the players.

I watch to see which players tend to appear together, and sometimes it can be up to 4-5 of the 9 players consistently showing up at the same table.

One raises, the other re-raises, then 1-2 others call -- once the other players fold, the players will check or bet low back and forth, but if they are all working together, they are probably splitting the winnings among the group.

In fact, I also see the groups alternating who gets the pot. For example, one will raise, the next re-raise and the third/fourth call, but then the raiser and re-raiser will fold to someone that has not won a pot for a while.

Reporting it does not help, because there is not enough "direct proof" of the cheating.

Xes, I agree. I think that there are fake accounts and I usually notice it when a player wins with all-in and e.g. with the last card on the table and disappears from the table immediately.

I beleive unfortunately there is alot of cheating in online poker... however...until it is regulated legally its a rism u just have to accept and deal with

I think the only cheating is at cash games when players can sit down together and communicate via messenger or some such and be able to help each other out. Say there are 3 spades on board and someone has K9s. If they know their friend had the Ace, then they know they have the nuts and can play accordingly.

If you are so scared of cheating on you, then you better not play poker, not go out and do not chat with people. In this case, it will be better to sit at home and drink water.

Originally Posted by Nelly404

Xes, I agree. I think that there are fake accounts and I usually notice it when a player wins with all-in and e.g. with the last card on the table and disappears from the table immediately.

How often does this happen in the game your playing. What type of game? What do you do when you see this happen? Also what site?

I will not argue with you that this is all or that it is not. Everything is possible. Conspiracy site will not notice but illegal software can reveal.

I also asked this question and more than once! But it seems to me that these poker rooms themselves put a low percentage of wins handing out bad cards for people to lose and recharge their account enriching them .. Although maybe I'm wrong but in my experience and for how long I play good cards fall to me once a day...

If you think this way,you should't play online.Stop trying to make money the lazy way and get out and work for it,,,,

Change table, room or do not play.

I think there is a small amount of colluding players. If they can communicate with each other and use 3bets and 4 bets to prey on the other players at the table, they can increase their win rates. It is too bad because if it is allowed to happen, players will not feel comfortable to play online for enjoyment.

I dont know if the sites have fake accounts they already make enough money! Now on the other hand I believe there are people that group up and collude and sometimes its very hard 2 tell. others i catch certain players while im on the table they will only go against me or it seems that way

Collusion definitely exists. And not only do I say that, I actually witnessed it. There is this gaming room where people pay to play, aside from PC games, people can play Poker as well. Once I was there some time ago, 3 players were playing at the same table on 3 computers that were next to each other.
However, I honestly think that any thinking player can realize that such a thing is happening at their table.

Using charts and graphs or 3rd party poker software isn't really cheating, everyone can use them, especially with the use of internet.

However, I would like to ask if anyone heard about poker bots? There was this podcast with Daniel Cates - Jungleman, where he said that he sees bots playing, mostly SnGs and are making some mathematically great decisions, that humans shouldn't make and are probably never making. I then googled about them a bit, and actually found out you can buy them easily at prices of several hundreds $, but I still don't know how they work exactly...

It appears you have more issues here then can be discussed in such a short time-frame as we have here…. lol
But let’s look at your hypothesis of “What is to stop sites from having fake accounts to generate pots and win tournaments”
Just using “and I appreciate it does not exist” COMMON SENSE, one would understand that there are no long term benefits for any online poker site in deliberately cheating their customers as in your example. These sites are making millions of dollars just operating to the world as an online poker site collecting rakes for every single player on every single game that they offer.
Why would any rational individual risk losing Millions of dollars to steal such small amounts from rigged tournaments? ……… if it makes no sense using the imaginary common sense barometer, then it most likely is not true.

I'm not sure about all out cheating...but people concluding...yes...I would think that someone who is cheating would be detected by high win percentage...I remember about 8-10 years ago an employee at 888poker(I think 888 cannot quite remember)...anyway the employee was logging in from server side and could see everybody's cards...but he was greedy and raked in thousands and thousands of dollars...eventually he was detected because his win percentage was like 3-4 times a great players...

Collusion is rampant.

Originally Posted by ruk1dd1ngme

I play cash games and have found an increasing number of situations where I am almost positive that there is collusion among some of the players.

I watch to see which players tend to appear together, and sometimes it can be up to 4-5 of the 9 players consistently showing up at the same table.

One raises, the other re-raises, then 1-2 others call -- once the other players fold, the players will check or bet low back and forth, but if they are all working together, they are probably splitting the winnings among the group.

In fact, I also see the groups alternating who gets the pot. For example, one will raise, the next re-raise and the third/fourth call, but then the raiser and re-raiser will fold to someone that has not won a pot for a while.


Reporting it does not help, because there is not enough "direct proof" of the cheating.

I have been refunded cash several times...(apparently I'm an easy mark}, from online poker rooms. I have felt on occasion that there was collusion, but could have been just a bad day. I've no idea where or when I played and they determined I was victimized, but the refund was nice!

Unfortunately collusion is a big problem online. I’m sure there are teams preying on unsuspecting victims. That’s why we have to police our game. If you suspect cheating is taking place then inform the site. They have a fraud team that will investigate. If the integrity of the online game is compromised then eventually the game will suffer.

I am surprised that you were able to get compensation -- I will try it myself.

Thanks for the feedback.

I highly doubt anyone could use software to see other’s cards on a “creditable” site, however I suppose anything is possible on computers

Being able to view ones whole cards is a little over the top. however the use of multiple bots playing on a single table will in communication is an issue. Most site could care less if your using bots. Bots pay rake to.

Originally Posted by PackinPat

How often does this happen in the game your playing. What type of game? What do you do when you see this happen? Also what site?

This happens in several SnG and freeroll games. For example, a player played all-in in a freeroll yesterday. His cards were 94, the flop was 94A8A. Who is playing pre-flop all-in in a middle position with these cards? The same happened also with 96. I don't do anything, I just notice it.

Originally Posted by nmate

According to your own link...

Can poker cheats see my cards on the internet?

I highly doubt it. Anybody who is capable of doing this made their own private software and is very wealthy because most online poker rooms use Thwarte 128-bit security to encrypt all of their code. In addition to that, players are not directly connected to each other, but are connected to the online poker room, so hackers would have an impossible time doing this. Some people do claim that they have software that can show you other people’s cards. Apparently this software allows you to see other player’s hole cards, or force opponents to only have one option, fold. Don’t worry about this though because online poker gaming software is incredibly advanced and the developers have already made efforts to detect this type of software before poker cheats can sit down at a table. Don’t waste your time or money on this software because it’s not only an attempt to cheat, but also won’t do anything but ultimately get your account frozen and all of your money would be forfeitted.

Yeah, it seems like you would have to have a superuser account. After unitbet those are highly secured.

I look at it like this. How do you know you aren't playing against a software engineer? Some of the biggest sites have been guilty of conspiracy and cheating. Look at Ultimate Bet. I can remember a program called Poker RNG that would calculate cards from data on Poker Stars. They made a program that would show 3/5 cards. It worked well, but when it didn't, well. The company went through a lot to make that software. I think it was something like hundreds of thousands of hands were used.

I have the impression that the online poker software helps the players that have more stacks in tables.

Maybe to finish the tournament quickly so they can make more money faster???

This is my feeling.

Best Regards all.

Originally Posted by prizzy711

Yeah, it seems like you would have to have a superuser account. After unitbet those are highly secured.

I find your response fascinating. Could you elaborate on exactly what you mean by superuser accounts being "highly secured?"

I personally highly highly doubt anyone can see hole cards. I wouldn't be overly surprised at a level of collusion, but that only helps so much. That's probably much more of a thing at cash tables than MTT, and frankly I'm not sure how much of an edge a player can get doing that.

Unfortunately,there are many cheaters playing online poker.I remember once I was searching for a cash game table on PokerStars and I found a table with 2 players of the same country.I wanted to know their strategies before I play with them.So I started watching them...the two players checked till the river and ,suddenly,one went all in and the other player made instant call ,,,with NOTHING..I said what???..And the following hands happened the same thing...only one players was winning all the hands.,that is,all in on every hand,But, when another player registered on the table ,both players left the table immediately.

Well poker players that are found cheating by dumping chips to others is considered being banned by the poker administrators and how I know is that it happened to me many years ago and I was banned from playing poker for 3 years. So all I say is players that do cheat will be caught out.

Originally Posted by Nelly404

This happens in several SnG and freeroll games. For example, a player played all-in in a freeroll yesterday. His cards were 94, the flop was 94A8A. Who is playing pre-flop all-in in a middle position with these cards? The same happened also with 96. I don't do anything, I just notice it.

C'mon you think there rigging a freeroll game, in a freeroll players play all kinds of crap there no risk anything possible

it's hard to say for sure that someone is a cheter. Sometimes it seems. I think even professional players can't find a cheater, poker is a game of possibilities. to avoid this situations i play in big old and famous rooms, for small amounts, so even if cheater will enter this room, i think he will play for bigger money, cause risk to be captured. So, posibility to meet a cheater tends to zero. Have fun!

Poker online seems to be a little different than in person, are the sites cheating? I don't know that for sure. I have heard that some have been known for it, there have been times a hand looks like you have been cheated, but I lean towards a lot of people just "assume" that when they in fact playing bad poker. Collusion? I guarantee it is a regular thing online. There is nothing to prohibit 3 friends getting at the table with speaker phone on and talking with 6 other player on the table and sharing info on their hands. Its not good for poker and it more than likely make it a bad experience for the unknowing victims, making them not want to play poker again. Sad deal all the way around.

Originally Posted by digdug0037

Collusion? I guarantee it is a regular thing online. There is nothing to prohibit 3 friends getting at the table with speaker phone on and talking with 6 other player on the table and sharing info on their hands.

This is true, but the beautiful thing about online poker is, that everything is tracked and can be analysed mathematically. It is therefore not difficult for site security to notice, if someone is always playing together, and if they play different against each other than other opponents. And then the cheaters get their accounts banned and all their funds confiscated.

Also doing this takes away the ability to multi table. So for most winning players in the micros, it simply makes more sense to fire up a bunch of tables and win their money in an honest way

If its a game ppl will figure out a way to cheat......That just comes with the territory

Hi.
When I published a post about my suspicion of collusion at the tables, some "bright minds", which I also see in this thread (obviously their names don't matter, it's irrelevant), they told me that I was a "conspiranoic" (I hope you understand the translation of the term). I did not discuss the issue with these "enlightened minds" since I am a novice in poker and respect trajectories (not people) but, beyond that, it seems perfectly possible that two or more people organize themselves to earn money or defeat and eliminate to some player, for example in bubble. It also seems possible to me that a room, if I wanted to, favored one or another player, but I humbly believe that it would be catastrophic for the room if that is detected and denounced. On the other hand, the rooms may have very good computer security systems, but there are brilliant people at the service of evil (I will not give examples, I leave it to their discretion and their memory).
Greetings.

Of course there will probably always be cheating when money is involved. Sites could easily but it not worth it in consequences because they make enough money anyway. On the tables yea there are guys prob in the same room,t.v. chatting or whatever. You could prob figure it out if the same 3 or 4 guys were on the same table every time you sat down and was playn.

The thought of collusion keeps me away from regular cash games, therefore I only play zoom occasionally.
Even though the thought of collusion is still there, I still play tournaments and zoom because the seating is not constant, therefore, making colluding harder.

Actually I know that players have targeted me in a tournament, usually if I had some beef with them previously they will fold to sitouts but always target my blinds. they tell their mates and they all do the same. so I have to play different sites in the end. you cant beat 3 or 4 players colluding at a table

Never.

Collusion exist at all levels on every site, really its probably impossible to fix. I do know that there have been people in the past with programs that allowed to see everyones cards. There is one names potripper. You can find videos of this guy on youtube. I do believe sites fight this kind of cheating but with todays technology everything is possible.

Originally Posted by NBB

It appears you have more issues here then can be discussed in such a short time-frame as we have here…. lol
But let’s look at your hypothesis of “What is to stop sites from having fake accounts to generate pots and win tournaments”
Just using “and I appreciate it does not exist” COMMON SENSE, one would understand that there are no long term benefits for any online poker site in deliberately cheating their customers as in your example. These sites are making millions of dollars just operating to the world as an online poker site collecting rakes for every single player on every single game that they offer.
Why would any rational individual risk losing Millions of dollars to steal such small amounts from rigged tournaments? ……… if it makes no sense using the imaginary common sense barometer, then it most likely is not true.

Well its like this,not so common sense tells me that without deposits there are no cashouts or rake and whats on the site will soon be gone from cashouts and rake with no deposits,so the best thing the site can do is get more deposits and less cashouts while keeping as much money in play as possible,how to do this....they screw us when we are down to get deposits,screw us when we are up to stop cashouts,and screw us in between by laddering the money to the high rollers who not only pay all the biggest rake but also are not much of a threat as far as withdrawls go because they are already rich lol...its that simple.