A ruling please on fold or no fold

T

Taipan

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I recently played a live hand where my opponent pushed all in. I had quads and couldn,t be beaten so I asked the question … ''are you all in'' he said yes then I said ''pass them (chips) over here and dropped my pocket pair down face up. I was challenged by my opponent to the point where he said because I didn't say ''I call'' then it constituted a fold. The tournament ref was called and the decision went his way. I have been advised by others if my cards were face up and no further betting could take place as one player was all in so the only option is to call or not to call my hand was deemed to be a live call. Can someone direct me or advise me as to the correct ruling...many thanks.
 
smallfrie

smallfrie

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You can call verbally or by moving chips forward at any time before your hand is mucked even after the "Tournament Director" is standing there. In this case even if your opponent made their complaint after your cards were mucked, the dealer and other players saw them and your intent was clear with your non-standard statement (I would discourage you from ever using non-standard terminology in the future, non-standard terms can be interpreted to mean different things by different people, but in this case I think your intent could only mean one thing and nothing else... CALL). The dealer should have awarded you the pot and the "Tournament Director" should have confirmed that the chips were now yours imo.

TDA RULE 1:Floor Decisions
The best interest of the game and fairness are top priorities in decision-making. Unusual circumstances occasionally dictate that common-sense decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over technical rules. Floor decisions are final.
 
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smallfrie

smallfrie

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**** smallfrie rule**** Know the rules and don't take any actions that may be perceived as anything other than following the rules and keep decisions out of the hands of a Tournament Director who may be called on to make a decision requiring common-sense when aforementioned Tournament Director may be lacking any common-sense.

You can google pokertda and find the TDA rules which most rooms use to make decisions regarding tournaments. If you are heading out to a live tournament, I would recommend you read the rules and also ask the room for any specific house rules.
 
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TheRealPage

TheRealPage

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Confusion here.. The first word you've said is "Pass".. Complete sentence, ok, but the first word you've said is an action in poker.

In french canadian there's a swear word which souds like "call isshhhh".. many years ago, at a final table, the f-c player tries a bluff betting half of his stack, but got a snap « ALL-IN » for response.. His reaction: snap "CAL***!!!" (the cursed word) realising he got trapped and his oppenent have a read on him big time...the dealer took it for a call..

Floorman was called and nothing to do, with 1 or 2 other little technicals details, the first sound out of his mouth was "CALL" and the rest wasn't clear enough. A question of langugage used during the game and dictionnary are also in the decision.


Weird that you posted about this, I'm reading a book of Susie Isaacs, I'm not bluffing and she talk about these sort of slow plays and mistakes they can make us do.


A certain level of sportmanship - since poker is a sport - needs also to be considered in poker.. it's frustrating to hear someone snapp calling you with the a nut, showing it when you didn't even end to say « all-in » when you have the second and it costs all your chips, but when it's done properly, there's always that thing called « respect » that will stay between these players.

-TRP-
 
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spottedflyer

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I think that they should have given you cause you wouldn't fold quads lol but their decision was legit, it has such confusing rules like if you turn over one card you have to turn over the other too :p but ok it's correct :)
 
roger perkins

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that was a bullshit call by the tournament director. My guess is the villain was a regular and the wrong decision was made in his favor. It is obvious you were calling by your words and actions. You may hear a player say ship it sometimes when calling a pot. The intent is clear. IMHO. However I do agree you were probably showboating a bit and should have just stuck with I call. If you were not sure he was all in then you ask the dealer not the player. You were kind of slow rolling him and that is bad form. again IMHO
 
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c0rnBr34d

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Gross ruling. Maybe they have a rule about exposing your hole cards before making a clear action. As others have said your show boating helped make this bad ruling possible though. First action is important. Before you start show boating either push in some chips, or announce call. Then if you really want to be a poor sport at least you can win the pot.
 
PaxMundi

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Using the word Pass i would say could be problematic and seen as an angle shoot,but as you had quads and the nuts it obviously isnt an angle shoot. It's impossible to say whether or not it was bad poker etequitte as the context is needed and other things considered. But bad poker etequitte although frowned on isnt agaisnt the rules as far as im aware anyway. I would be unhappy with the ruling but you just have to respect the ruling of the house they should have no bias either way.
 
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Tyler Finnimore

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Probably should just call instead of table talk unless you're friends with the Villain
 
finaltable1

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Your act was a sign of tilt. You had a monster hand and this was the reason for ignoring the rules of the game provided to you by the tournament director.

What happened to me once:I wanted to fold to $300 all-in on the river after investing $80 in the pot with pocket sevens, was check\calling to see if I'll hit the set, but Qd on turn and Kd on the river has closed all possible straights, and diamond flush = 4 diamonds in community cards and I had black sevens.. plus all community cards been overcards to my sevens.
but I had 4 chips in my left hand and was playing with them, one of them slipped and rolled ahead and it was considered AS A CALL... We observer a video with admin, and he agreed with dealers decision. Moving cheap ahead for any reason is a call. Not moving chip ahead or not saying that you're calling can't be considered as official action in poker...
Well if you're playing with your friends and you have your own rules there - it's possible to do whatever you want in your private game, but if you're in the casino or in the poker club - it's better to study their rules before playing at the table. I've paid for my mistake, instead of just folding, I've spent a minute playing Hollywood, like "I have a strong hand and want to call, but will fold it" and dropped a chip in the middle during this time by accident, so since then I'm not touching my chips unless I'm going to bet or call.
 
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underdog140

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The wrong decision is made. Someone holding the nuts shouldn't be forced to give up the pot on some BS rule. What is even more gross is the player not the decision who is trying to steal a pot he obviously knew he lost.
 
xOneCoolHandx

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I recently played a live hand where my opponent pushed all in. I had quads and couldn,t be beaten so I asked the question … ''are you all in'' he said yes then I said ''pass them (chips) over here and dropped my pocket pair down face up. I was challenged by my opponent to the point where he said because I didn't say ''I call'' then it constituted a fold. The tournament ref was called and the decision went his way. I have been advised by others if my cards were face up and no further betting could take place as one player was all in so the only option is to call or not to call my hand was deemed to be a live call. Can someone direct me or advise me as to the correct ruling...many thanks.


The ruling was bull****. From your table talk and actions, your clear intent was to call the villain. I was in a live tournament (and a bounty tournament at that) once and was in the BB with q9 spades. UTG made a standard 3x the BB raise and the button called and so did I. Flop came KsJd5s. UTG raised, button called, I called. Turn came ace of spades, giving me the nut flush. Villain bet, button called, I raised. Villain re-raised, button folds and I shove. Villain calls. I show my nut flush and he disgustingly throws down his pocket jacks and mutters that he didn't even see the flush. He starts to walk off (which should have mucked his hand.) He gets a few steps from the table when another player yells: "wait, your not drawing dead." He comes back to the table and the river pairs the board giving him a full house. I call for the TD and he rules in the other guys favor. I disagreed because the rules were clear about walking away from the table.

TD's don't always get it right, so you do have to be careful about your actions, in my situation, the guy should have been toast, his intentions were clear, as were yours (just in the opposite). I also agree that you were showboating a little bit and acting like an a**. But, what matters is what your intentions were and you clearing were telling him that you had him crushed. Bad decision by the TD.
 
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