Upswing Poker poker lab

M

Murph1969

Rock Star
Joined
Jun 1, 2021
Total posts
123
Anybody tried it? I bought a month subscription and went through the first couple modules. Totally and completely unimpressed. I’ll be the first to admit I absolutely suck at poker, but I don’t believe for one second you can put your opponent on a hand or range of hands based on how he plays the hand. And what’s the point of putting someone on a range anyway? Your hand doesn’t have the same equity against all hands in a range.
 
Misaki

Misaki

Visionary
Joined
Jul 11, 2018
Total posts
795
Awards
6
"And what’s the point of putting someone on a range anyway? Your hand doesn’t have the same equity against all hands in a range"

I will answer only on that, because I never used Upswing Lab.

In poker on higher level of thinking you play a range vs range. Not hand vs range or hands vs hand. It's important, because in poker you represent a range. Not a single hand.

The easiest example:

You open from a button 65s and regular player on Big Blind calls. Flop comes AK4r.

First think what range your oponent can have in this situation on this board. He has many medium Ax in his range, many medium Kx in his range, some gutshots like QJs, QTs, TJs, because not everyone 3bet them preflop, 4x there is only hands like A4, A4s (from time to time), 64s, 74s, K4s. Plus he has a lot of hands which missed a board, like Q8o, 98o, 96s etc etc.

You have 65s, but you don't open from BU only 65s but you open a lot of hands like every PP, every Ax (sometimes fold with A2o-A3o), every Kx, and many hands which didn't hit a board.

But what's the most important you need to answer yourself who has a range advantage on a board AK4s in spot BU vs BB. It's you, because you have in your range every set: You have AA, KK, 44. Your opponent can only have 44, because with aces and kings he would 3bet preflop. Also you have strong Ax on this board like AK, AQ, AJ etc. Your opponent doesn't have it, because he would 3bet it preflop.
So your range is much stronger than your opponent. What does it mean for you? it means that you have a huge fold equity on this board if you would barrel it, because your opponent on this board structure will never has an easy call vs 3 barrels.

So you don't focus on 65s, but you focus what you can represent. By betting flop, turn, river with your 65s which is actually an air you can win a pot, because your opponent doesn't have a strong range there. You have! of course we can't 3barrel there every time with every combination because people would start to call us very wide, but I just wanted to show you in some simple way how ranges work on some kind of structures and positions.

That's why you play a range vs range. Of course vs recreational players you don't focus so much on your range because your opponent doesn't think that way. That's why you focus more on exploits and actually your hand, but that's a different thing. Every spot in poker is different. But thinking in ranges, improving your hand reading is one of the most important stuff in poker if you want to be a decent player.
 
M

Murph1969

Rock Star
Joined
Jun 1, 2021
Total posts
123
"And what’s the point of putting someone on a range anyway? Your hand doesn’t have the same equity against all hands in a range"

I will answer only on that, because I never used Upswing Lab.

In poker on higher level of thinking you play a range vs range. Not hand vs range or hands vs hand. It's important, because in poker you represent a range. Not a single hand.

The easiest example:

You open from a button 65s and regular player on Big Blind calls. Flop comes AK4r.

First think what range your oponent can have in this situation on this board. He has many medium Ax in his range, many medium Kx in his range, some gutshots like QJs, QTs, TJs, because not everyone 3bet them preflop, 4x there is only hands like A4, A4s (from time to time), 64s, 74s, K4s. Plus he has a lot of hands which missed a board, like Q8o, 98o, 96s etc etc.

You have 65s, but you don't open from BU only 65s but you open a lot of hands like every PP, every Ax (sometimes fold with A2o-A3o), every Kx, and many hands which didn't hit a board.

But what's the most important you need to answer yourself who has a range advantage on a board AK4s in spot BU vs BB. It's you, because you have in your range every set: You have AA, KK, 44. Your opponent can only have 44, because with aces and kings he would 3bet preflop. Also you have strong Ax on this board like AK, AQ, AJ etc. Your opponent doesn't have it, because he would 3bet it preflop.
So your range is much stronger than your opponent. What does it mean for you? it means that you have a huge fold equity on this board if you would barrel it, because your opponent on this board structure will never has an easy call vs 3 barrels.

So you don't focus on 65s, but you focus what you can represent. By betting flop, turn, river with your 65s which is actually an air you can win a pot, because your opponent doesn't have a strong range there. You have! of course we can't 3barrel there every time with every combination because people would start to call us very wide, but I just wanted to show you in some simple way how ranges work on some kind of structures and positions.

That's why you play a range vs range. Of course vs recreational players you don't focus so much on your range because your opponent doesn't think that way. That's why you focus more on exploits and actually your hand, but that's a different thing. Every spot in poker is different. But thinking in ranges, improving your hand reading is one of the most important stuff in poker if you want to be a decent player.

Sorry, I just don’t buy it. I guess that’s why I will always be a terrible player.
 
Misaki

Misaki

Visionary
Joined
Jul 11, 2018
Total posts
795
Awards
6
Sorry, I just don’t buy it. I guess that’s why I will always be a terrible player.

that's your choice. As a helpful advice I can add that investing money in any course is like burning money in your situatuon, because in every course, every coach will talk about ranges. This is how poker works. As we don't know what our opponents have exactly in their hands, we must to think about all possible options, every combination which they can have. Same work in opposite site.
You can't be focused only what you have in your hand, because it would mean you wouldn't bluff and you would bet only with your made hands. In poker you have to bluff, because you miss most of the boards. But you can't bluff every time. You have to know how much you should bluff and what combinations of the cards would be good to do that on different board structures. That's why you learn preflop ranges, analyze your game on different boards, different scenarios. You can't be a good player without it.
Of course there are many other factors like proper bet sizing for example. There are a lot of things. Poker is not easy and for sure it's not easy money. You need to work a lot. And by a lot I mean really a lot.
As you invested already money in Upswing Poker then try to watch some productions, make notes and try to understand what poker really is.
good luck.
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
10,262
Awards
1
The point of putting your opponent on a range is to figure out the most profitable line against them. If for instance you have Ks9s, and the board runs out KdQd8c5h2h, and the opponent check to you, you need to decide, if you want to bet the river for value. If your opponent can get to the river with a wide range of hands, and many of those will still call, then you should probably bet for value. But if a bet will mainly get called by hands, that beat you, you should check back.

That being said it does sound like, you are not ready for an advanced and expensive training site like Upswing. So why not stick to all the free training material, which is available on the internet, including CCs own "become a winning poker player in 30 days" course. If you dont like it, then at least it cost you nothing but your time :)
 
M

Murph1969

Rock Star
Joined
Jun 1, 2021
Total posts
123
The point of putting your opponent on a range is to figure out the most profitable line against them. If for instance you have Ks9s, and the board runs out KdQd8c5h2h, and the opponent check to you, you need to decide, if you want to bet the river for value. If your opponent can get to the river with a wide range of hands, and many of those will still call, then you should probably bet for value. But if a bet will mainly get called by hands, that beat you, you should check back.

That being said it does sound like, you are not ready for an advanced and expensive training site like Upswing. So why not stick to all the free training material, which is available on the internet, including CCs own "become a winning poker player in 30 days" course. If you dont like it, then at least it cost you nothing but your time :)


I did in fact start the CC training course and didn’t like it any better. I simply don’t believe in the concept of putting my opponent on a hand or range. I guess I’ll just quit.
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
10,262
Awards
1
I did in fact start the CC training course and didn’t like it any better. I simply don’t believe in the concept of putting my opponent on a hand or range. I guess I’ll just quit.

If the whole idea of putting your opponent on a range is kind of offensive to you, you will have a difficult time becoming a long term profitable player. So yes either quit or decide, that you are going to play purely for fun. Playing for fun is completely fine, especially if you stick to things like freerolls or micro games, where you dont lose any significant money.

I cant help feeling though, that maybe you take the concept of putting someone on a range a bit to literal? In real time few people sit there and try to construct an exact range for their opponent. In my example with Ks9s on KdQd8c5h2h my decision will mostly be based on previous action.

If I bet flop and checked back turn, and the opponent now check to be again, I will assume, that I probably have the best hand, since he would often have bet a hand stronger than mine to get value on the river. I will also assume, he can still have a lot of Qx or 8x, and that those hands might be willing to call a small river bet, because I showed weakness by checking back the turn. So I will bet for value.

If however I bet both flop and turn, and he is still hanging on, I will assume, that most of his range is hands, that either beat me or wont call another bet, so I will check back. The point being, that if he folded QT or 98 to my turn bet, then he cant have these hands on the river. And even if he does still have them, he is probably not going to call another bet, because I showed a lot of strenght by betting all 3 streets.
 
Top